€Freeroll NLHE MTT: K10o from BB vs 3-limpers - 50 places from cash

T

tisco

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Freeroll tournament 50€ guarantee.
Players 668, 184 left, cash places 134.
Table 10 players.
Blinds 500/1000, (no ante).
No HUD

MP3 - Limp - 22 BB
CO - Limp - 18 BB
DB - Limp - 35 BB
SB - Call- 20 BB

POT 4.5 BB

HERO Shove from BB with 15 BB

Is this a profitable shove or should I've just check?
 
eetenor

eetenor

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Freeroll tournament 50€ guarantee.
Players 668, 184 left, cash places 134.
Table 10 players.
Blinds 500/1000, (no ante).
No HUD

MP3 - Limp - 22 BB
CO - Limp - 18 BB
DB - Limp - 35 BB
SB - Call- 20 BB

POT 4.5 BB

HERO Shove from BB with 15 BB

Is this a profitable shove or should I've just check?

Thank U 4 Posting

There are four limpers the SB call is a limp.

You have to think about the ranges your villains have. Will villains limp Kq Kj JJ 1010 A10 and then call with these hands when u shove? 4 limpers can have a very wide range of hands and we are not likely dominating anyone unless they have Q10 J10


Hope this helps

:):)
 
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ssbn743

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Freeroll tournament 50€ guarantee.
Players 668, 184 left, cash places 134.
Table 10 players.
Blinds 500/1000, (no ante).
No HUD

MP3 - Limp - 22 BB
CO - Limp - 18 BB
DB - Limp - 35 BB
SB - Call- 20 BB

POT 4.5 BB

HERO Shove from BB with 15 BB

Is this a profitable shove or should I've just check?

Math is the answer here, we’ll go through that below, but as a default I’m not in love with this shove and vastly prefer a check. Now, there is something to be said for the short stack sizes involved, in that that, may increase our fold equity from what is nominal, but it’s still a pretty aggressive and unnecessary play IMO. Let’s go through the math:

Ok, we are effective at 15BB – I like the get in it in thinking here, that’s what we should be thinking, how do I get it in? The pot is 4.5BB prior to our shove, we can take the free check.

We also need to know how much equity we have if called – which is harder to estimate in such a donk-ish scenario, they could really have all 1326. However, if we use Equilab to tell us our equity against all 4 other hands, and assuming a giant range of:

77-22,A9s-A2s,K7s+,Q7s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s,AJo-A2o,K7o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o,87o,76o,65o,54o

We get 22%

Against just one of those ranges:

We get 54%

Average them together, and that’s being generous, we get 38% equity

Plugging all that into my handy-dandy spreadsheet (I’ve attached) and we’re going to see some less than good numbers.

-First, our breakeven number is 77% - which means we have to win, one way or another, 77% of the time just to break even
- From a FE perspective, we need 4 bad players to limp fold at least 55% of the time just to break even

So, let’s say we feel we can take advantage of the short stacked, donk nature of our villains, and we can generate folds 80% of the time (which is pretty much a pipe dream), we make 2.5BB.

That’s risking 15BB for 2.5BB.

So, to answer your question, is it profitable? Yes…..Probably, (although, again there are lots of factors here), but we should still take the free check.
 

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greatgame230

greatgame230

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I think that with K10o you should have checked, you still have 15BB there was no reason to hurry so much I would have waited a little longer in this case
 
albosaltenio

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I would not risk so much, maybe a strong bet would be better to know which player can take a stronger hand.
If you push all your chips it is easier to pay your bet because someone who has a good hand will seek to introduce more chips to the pot whit bets moderate.
 
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tisco

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Thank U 4 Posting

There are four limpers the SB call is a limp.

You have to think about the ranges your villains have. Will villains limp Kq Kj JJ 1010 A10 and then call with these hands when u shove? 4 limpers can have a very wide range of hands and we are not likely dominating anyone unless they have Q10 J10


Hope this helps

:):)

I think like 99+/KJo+ is raising and the limp is like 54s+/22-77.
I ended up getting called by A5s at the end of the day.
 
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tisco

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Math is the answer here, we’ll go through that below, but as a default I’m not in love with this shove and vastly prefer a check. Now, there is something to be said for the short stack sizes involved, in that that, may increase our fold equity from what is nominal, but it’s still a pretty aggressive and unnecessary play IMO. Let’s go through the math:

Ok, we are effective at 15BB – I like the get in it in thinking here, that’s what we should be thinking, how do I get it in? The pot is 4.5BB prior to our shove, we can take the free check.

We also need to know how much equity we have if called – which is harder to estimate in such a donk-ish scenario, they could really have all 1326. However, if we use Equilab to tell us our equity against all 4 other hands, and assuming a giant range of:

77-22,A9s-A2s,K7s+,Q7s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s,AJo-A2o,K7o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o,87o,76o,65o,54o

We get 22%

Against just one of those ranges:

We get 54%

Average them together, and that’s being generous, we get 38% equity

Plugging all that into my handy-dandy spreadsheet (I’ve attached) and we’re going to see some less than good numbers.

-First, our breakeven number is 77% - which means we have to win, one way or another, 77% of the time just to break even
- From a FE perspective, we need 4 bad players to limp fold at least 55% of the time just to break even

So, let’s say we feel we can take advantage of the short stacked, donk nature of our villains, and we can generate folds 80% of the time (which is pretty much a pipe dream), we make 2.5BB.

That’s risking 15BB for 2.5BB.

So, to answer your question, is it profitable? Yes…..Probably, (although, again there are lots of factors here), but we should still take the free check.

Thanks for a great answer!

I lean more towards the check here even thought it's +EV after some great feedback.
What would you do if only CO with 18BB limped here?
What would your shoving range be and do you also have a raise range with 15BB from BB with one limper?

/Curious cardplayer
 
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fundiver199

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When I see 4 people limping, I see dead money everywhere. I think, people in a freeroll limp incorrectly with all sorts of garbage. However they also sometimes limp with hands, that were good enough to raise, and some of their garbage like rag aces and baby pairs actually beat us. So we are probably not doing great when called, and its somewhat unlikely, we can get this many players to fold. For these reasons I prefer to just take the free play and wait for a better spot.
 
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I would check here and shove from A7s, A10o KQo, KJs, QJs and Pocket 55+.
 
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tisco

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When I see 4 people limping, I see dead money everywhere. I think, people in a freeroll limp incorrectly with all sorts of garbage. However they also sometimes limp with hands, that were good enough to raise, and some of their garbage like rag aces and baby pairs actually beat us. So we are probably not doing great when called, and its somewhat unlikely, we can get this many players to fold. For these reasons I prefer to just take the free play and wait for a better spot.

Haha, same here, the dead money part is from my 6-max cash game tabling, I just wanna pick it up uncontested, to much of the time.
Something I have to re-adjust now that I'm doing this freeroll challenge with a friend of mine.
 
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tisco

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Thanks for all the great feedback guys!

Wish you good fortune at the poker tables.
 
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ssbn743

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Thanks for a great answer!

I lean more towards the check here even thought it's +EV after some great feedback.
What would you do if only CO with 18BB limped here?
What would your shoving range be and do you also have a raise range with 15BB from BB with one limper?

/Curious cardplayer


Well, that is an interesting dynamic….if you have a player that’s bad enough to open limp the CO with 18BB’s it feels like you’re almost obligated to punish them with pretty much anything.

And the math is going to support that – when we get called, we’re probably not loving life, but jam 15BB to a CO 18BB open limp all day long with a very wide range. As you can see from the spreadsheet, even if he never folds, we make money – which is pretty much exactly the opposite of the situation we find ourselves in with 3 additional bad limpers.

Just for the record, this math does assume the previously defined range. If he never folds, we need 47% equity to breakeven, which is probably not going to happen with KTo – so we do need some folds here. But, 0% folds is a vacuum situation that will never happen in reality anyway.
 

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eetenor

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Fear of loss factor

I think like 99+/KJo+ is raising and the limp is like 54s+/22-77.
I ended up getting called by A5s at the end of the day.


Thank U 4 Responding.

I think your range is off considering 4 limpers and stack sizes. While that range may be correct for the first 2 limpers the second 2 limpers may just see a flop with hands as strong as AK especially considering villain player pool calls as weak as A5 suited after a shove into 4 limpers. SB in that case may just be calling with KQ off KJ off and all A10's. Some weak villains, which you have, will flat JJ-22 after 2 limpers. Many will limp with Suited K's up to the Q and some will limp with AKs.

Villains fear to get all-in preflop so they play wait and see.

Just some thoughts.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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