$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Freeroll NLHE MTT - Ad 8d call Flop all in

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dhumphir

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What should I had done in this play?
Raise pre flop and then all in? Or fold from the start.

https://www.boomplayer.com/el/25829544_849D535D09




Seat 1: R3YR3YR3Y (1500 chips)
Seat 2: jair bertoti (1500 chips)
Seat 3: pankor (1500 chips)
Seat 4: E.Lila888 (1500 chips)
Seat 5: K-SIZMA7777 (1500 chips)
Seat 6: favorit526 (1500 chips)
Seat 7: dhumphir (1500 chips)
Seat 8: icharbitro (1500 chips)
Seat 9: chianca98 (1500 chips)
jair bertoti: small blind 20
pankor: big blind 40
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dhumphir [Ad 8d]
E.Lila888: call 40
favorit526: call 40
dhumphir: call 40
R3YR3YR3Y: raise 40 σε 80
pankor: call 40
E.Lila888: call 40
favorit526: call 40
dhumphir: call 40
*** FLOP *** [4c 2c Ah]
pankor: check
E.Lila888: check
favorit526: check
dhumphir: bets 420
R3YR3YR3Y: raise 1000 to 1420 and is all-in
pankor: fold
E.Lila888: fold
favorit526: fold
dhumphir: call 1000 και είναι all-in
*** TURN *** [4c 2c Ah] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [4c 2c Ah Td] [ 3d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dhumphir: Shows [Ad 8d]
R3YR3YR3Y: Shows [Tc Ts]
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Pre-flop call, and call of min-raise, is fine. Against all of these callers you are mostly hoping to make flushes and two pair.

With just top pair and a medium kicker, I don't see any reason to bloat the pot by making a pot-sized donk bet on the flop. I'd have checked.

As played, top pair medium kicker is rarely going to be the best hand when you are deep-stacked and someone else who is deep-stacked goes all in. That is especially true in multi-way pots. Fold unless you have a good read that the villain is a maniac.
 
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PepeTurtle

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When I was playing the Elementary I was pretty conservative and A8s MP was a fold to me on this level of blinds. Specially with more than a limper and far from the blinds which means it will be hard to get heads-up doing an effective raise without affecting at least close to 20% of your stack in the first few hands of the tournament with A8s, this is worse than set mining with the wrong stack size. The thing is if you get called is probably by a better hand at this level.

At these tourneys, the logic of seeing several flops for chip doesn't work well in my opinion and you may be better avoiding bleeding calls. Your stack is 1500, this is level 1 only with 20/40 blinds. If you think about it, to make a 2x raise or to call a 2x raise, you're investing 5.3% of your stack. So choose carefully your spots.

Best Regards
 
Edu1

Edu1

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bet of 420 it was not a good move...
you had a Ace, but it was very precipitous, should have done half the pot, small bet,
not the pot. is it:cool:
 
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ucdengboss

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I probably only play that from CO or Button pre flop. I check to the pre flop raiser on the flop. I am not too confident in my 8 kicker here and no flush draw.

The villan's pre flop raise is terrible with that many limpers. I either limp also or make a 5-6bb raise there to try and get heads up. Min raise does not really do it for me there with several limpers in front of me.
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

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Pre-flop call, and call of min-raise, is fine. Against all of these callers you are mostly hoping to make flushes and two pair.

Have to disagree on this one, call pre flop and call min-raise isn't fine here. This sounds a lot like: if it is a minimum, call too see any flop and hope for the best which you can do with any two cards. Honestly what flop do you want to see and be good, and still get payed and extract value? Consider that you are probably not good if you just hit an ace, and asking for a flush or 2 pair is a longshot.

In these spots, either shove and hope for the best (I wouldn't recommend this, especially at the starting hand of a freeroll) or simply fold, and wait for better hands and spots to play.

As played, definitely agree with this:
With just top pair and a medium kicker, I don't see any reason to bloat the pot by making a pot-sized donk bet on the flop. I'd have checked.
Go for a check-call, but really you are putting yourself in a tricky spot whatever you do in this instance.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Have to disagree on this one, call pre flop and call min-raise isn't fine here. This sounds a lot like: if it is a minimum, call too see any flop and hope for the best which you can do with any two cards.

I'm not clear why it sounds like that.
It was a specific statement about a specific hand.
If any general rule should be extrapolated from it, the rule would be "play speculative hands when the pot odds and implied odds are in your favor".

Honestly what flop do you want to see and be good, and still get payed and extract value?

I'm not clear why you are asking this question.
You quoted me saying we are mostly hoping for flushes and two pair.

Consider that you are probably not good if you just hit an ace, and asking for a flush or 2 pair is a longshot.

I'm not clear why you are asking me to consider this.
You quoted me saying we are mostly hoping for flushes and two pair.
I meant to imply that just hitting an ace probably wouldn't be enough. I thought that would be clear.

A flush or 2 pair is indeed a longshot.
Just saying that something is unlikely to happen is not an argument for folding.
The chances of that event happening needs to be compared to the pot odds and implied odds.

1% chance of flopping flush
11% chance of flopping flush draw
2% chance of flopping two pair
1% chance of flopping three of a kind

So we are happy to see about 15% of the flops. We don't win that often, those are just the flops we are happy to see.
At the time of the there are 140 chips in the pot and it costs 40 to call, so 40/(140+40) = 22% pot odds.

We probably lose this hand.

But our implied odds are high. We have a significant chance to win a big pot.
Other players yet to act are likely to contribute to this pot (unfortunately they may also make a raise we cannot call).
Everyone's stack is large relative to the size of the bet.
In a freeroll against multiple players, one or more is likely to pay us off with a big pot if we make a strong hand.
If we make a flush, it will be the nut flush. If we make two pair, it is very unlikely there will be a better two pair.

It's a marginal situation with no mathematical solution. If the hero had folded, I wouldn't criticize him for it. But I'm OK with the call.

After the minraise there is 380 in the pot. It costs 40 to call, and the hero closes the pre-flop action. You say "call min-raise isn't fine here", but with those pot odds calling with any two cards would be the correct play.
 
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Edson

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Fold preflop, only :)

On deep stacks You can limp with those all limpers and waiting for flush. Someone will pay you all his chips postflop if You hit your board.
But not in freeroll when you have <40bb on the start. Donkbet on flop was also very weak
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

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A flush or 2 pair is indeed a longshot.
Just saying that something is unlikely to happen is not an argument for folding.
The chances of that event happening needs to be compared to the pot odds and implied odds.

1% chance of flopping flush
11% chance of flopping flush draw
2% chance of flopping two pair
1% chance of flopping three of a kind

So we are happy to see about 15% of the flops. We don't win that often, those are just the flops we are happy to see.
At the time of the there are 140 chips in the pot and it costs 40 to call, so 40/(140+40) = 22% pot odds.

We probably lose this hand.

So you understand that we probably lose this specific hand, and you are still fine with those calls pre-flop?
Also, saying that something is unlikely to happen, imo does mean it is a reason to fold. How does this sentence not imply on some other situation where you hold 23o and hope for some A22 flop? It is very unlikely, but hell, if we hit, players in a freeroll might pay us off and it is not likely someone else has a deuce in his hand.

When you say that calls are fine for whatever reason, one might think about same reasons in similar situations. Would you say the same thing if, instead of A8s, hero had 57s, 44, 55, 89s, JTo, QTo preflop? All likely to be payed off if they hit flops hard, but still unlikely to hit them..
 
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AlexTheOwl

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So you understand that we probably lose this specific hand, and you are still fine with those calls pre-flop?

Of course! Every time we play low and medium pocket pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces in a multi-way pot we probably lose that specific hand. Do you think we should never play those hands multi-way?

A play should be made because it is +EV in the long term, even if you are likely to lose that specific hand.

If you want to argue that this play was not +EV in the long term, that's very reasonable. But you seem to be arguing against playing speculative hands in general?

Also, saying that something is unlikely to happen, imo does mean it is a reason to fold. How does this sentence not imply on some other situation where you hold 23o and hope for some A22 flop? It is very unlikely, but hell, if we hit, players in a freeroll might pay us off and it is not likely someone else has a deuce in his hand.

If you think my saying it's OK to play a suited ace in a multi-way pot in a specific hand means I advocate playing any junk at any time . . . I just don't know what to say to that.

When you say that calls are fine for whatever reason, one might think about same reasons in similar situations. Would you say the same thing if, instead of A8s, hero had 57s, 44, 55, 89s, JTo, QTo preflop? All likely to be payed off if they hit flops hard, but still unlikely to hit them..

There are certainly times and places to play all of those hands. Do you really disagree?

With these particular stack sizes, population tendencies, position, etc., I'd say playing the small pairs is reasonable though marginal. The other hands you mention are too likely to be second best (or worse) if they make a hand on the flop.
 
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dpucciarelli

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First hand of the tournament. It is not worth to suck out with A8. Indeed your call was good since he had a pair, the rest was a cooler. But you are going to face AT,AJ,AQ a lot. I think you have to make a small bet on the flop , not the pot since your hand is not strong enough. Then you make your decision. I think the best scenario for you was to see some diamonds. An A in that flop is not good for your with all the limpers.
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

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Of course! Every time we play low and medium pocket pairs, suited connectors, and suited aces in a multi-way pot we probably lose that specific hand. Do you think we should never play those hands multi-way?

A play should be made because it is +EV in the long term, even if you are likely to lose that specific hand.

If you want to argue that this play was not +EV in the long term, that's very reasonable. But you seem to be arguing against playing speculative hands in general?

I am not arguing against speculative hands in general, as I also tend to play them, just not multi-way. I pick spots, positions, and opponents that I can exploit and play, sometimes with worse holdings then AXs.
As for the +EV long term, it is debatable, and it depends a lot on players post flop skills, including those of opponents.

There are certainly times and places to play all of those hands. Do you really disagree?
Of course these hands are all playable, but here in this particular spot, we are multi way, first hand of the tournament, people are limping lightly and have tendencies of shoving flops with all sorts of holdings. With all that being said, I advise not to limp and pray for a spectacular flop, since hero can place himself in very tough situations and end up mostly on the losing side.
 
lilu80

lilu80

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Hello. Limp here with A8s IMO is not good! You play here with 2 lipers, I play only bet 140 to pot preflop. In this wet flop 42sA, cbet 80%, and shove his AI. Pls never limp this cards. I play limp only 5% all game. This is freeroll, and many players play bad his range, and A8s play good from MP!
 
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uavissar

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I don't like the limping and calling. If you decided to play with A8s, be aggressive. You have position on the limpers as well.

As played- snap call.
 
No1eJoker

No1eJoker

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You are not lucky in this hand, that is problem!
 
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