$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Early in a ACR $10 freeroll

GiGiCat

GiGiCat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Total posts
191
Awards
1
Chips
4
Blinds: 50/100

9 players Hero SB (1820), villain 1 UTG +1 (1270), villain 2 CO (4972)

Hero dealt: :qs4: , :ks4:

Villains Unknown

Preflop:

fold, Villain 1 raises $400, 3 folds, Villain 2 calls, fold, hero calls, BB folds

Flop:

:9s4: :js4: :ad4:

Hero Checks
Villain 1 shoves $860 all in
Villain 2 folds
Hero calls

Villain 1 shows :as4: :jh4:

What do my fellow CC members think? I had 12 outs on the flop and think this was a well played hand.

Regards,
GiGiCat:)
 
taurusix

taurusix

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Total posts
1,447
Awards
20
Chips
118
Pot odds justify your call postflop. Overall wp, especially if u hit your outs [emoji5]
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
well, on the flop it is easy call, but I don't like your call pre-flop. You can't call 4bb with 18bb stack, you can't realistically play postflop profitably with this hand out of position against two opponents. Imho, it is a fold preflop facing 4bb raise from utg.
 
thatguy6793

thatguy6793

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Total posts
1,156
Awards
4
Chips
0
well, on the flop it is easy call, but I don't like your call pre-flop. You can't call 4bb with 18bb stack, you can't realistically play postflop profitably with this hand out of position against two opponents. Imho, it is a fold preflop facing 4bb raise from utg.

I disagree. 4BB out of 18 is a justifiable call preflop because you can't be that picky with your hand selection at this point but KQs is a hand that has a lot of playing potential postflop if it hits and if it doesn't you still have enough chips to play good short stack defense. In this situation postflop you have to make the call with the nut straight and nut flush draws with you have the equity needed to call. Really well played imo.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Total posts
860
Chips
0
Agree with thatguy. I will add that early in these freerolls, ranges are wider than they would be in a normal tournament.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
I disagree. 4BB out of 18 is a justifiable call preflop because you can't be that picky with your hand selection at this point but KQs is a hand that has a lot of playing potential postflop if it hits and if it doesn't you still have enough chips to play good short stack defense. In this situation postflop you have to make the call with the nut straight and nut flush draws with you have the equity needed to call. Really well played imo.

How you can play postflop when you have just pot bet left behind? In this case hitting straight draw is useless, because you dont have stack to play your draws profitably. Basically we are going to play hit-or-fold, and I don't like it with dominated KQ hand here. In freerolls opponents can open wider, but they won't open with 4bb. 4bb raise from weak players usually indicates strength, I can't imagine him having wider than normal utg range here.
 
thatguy6793

thatguy6793

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Total posts
1,156
Awards
4
Chips
0
How you can play postflop when you have just pot bet left behind? In this case hitting straight draw is useless, because you dont have stack to play your draws profitably. Basically we are going to play hit-or-fold, and I don't like it with dominated KQ hand here. In freerolls opponents can open wider, but they won't open with 4bb. 4bb raise from weak players usually indicates strength, I can't imagine him having wider than normal utg range here.

Well considering you don't have to make a pot sized bet you can play several ways (i.e. check-raise, check-fold, min raise, 1/2 pot raise, shove all-in), raising a pot sized bet would be the worst move actually here since you could be 3bet by the big stack. As for the whole freeroll thing a 4BB bet from any position can't really be that informative early on in a freeroll because just like you said they could be opening wider and raising wider, unless GiGi has some more information on the v you can't personally say he's weak. If the straight draw is useless, which it really isn't because no other hand beats your straight unless they also have KQ or hit runner runner against you which is now harder because we hold 2 of the cards they would need, we have the flush draw as well which KQs dominates against most hand in the v range except for a few.

If you actually look at the math on odds oracle with our hand on that flop, our hand has the better equity against everything except for the top 9% of hands, and even then it's basically 50/50. If you look at everything, then yes preflop you see that you have to shove post flop on most of the things you could hit but if you consider the hand in it's entirety (implied odds, pot size, equity, number of outs, potential nut hands) it's really an easily call to call pre and shove post. One thing you did leave out also is that UTG only has 12BB left, which means he's already having to open with a wider range both in general and for his raises. Against a short stack raise you really have to consider that they have to show more strength to get more people off the pot that can force him into an all-in call so his 4BB raise range might not be that tight right now and his standard opening bet might be 4BB in general we really don't have the info to just assume how he plays. And just again GiGi I think you played it very well
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
@thatguy6793, UTG raiser is 12 bb, it doesn't mean he is going to open wider, in fact we can assume that if he opens 4bb, then he is always going to call 3-bet all-in and never folds. So, his open raise should be similar to preflop shove range, which is top 12%. And in this situation we should just play as if he shoved. If we call and play postflop we will have hard time realizing our equity. How we are going to play on AKx, AQx boards? What we will do with gutshots on a board like ATx? In all this situations we probably would play check fold to all-in, since utg has less than pot bet left. That's why I say our straight draws doesn't mean anything, because we can call all-in with straight draw only if board comes JTx, and even in that situation it is 50/50 at best. Are we going to call huge portion of our stack and pray for K/Q without Ace or flush draw(which comes only once in 8 times)? And even if hit bare king, it is not easy double up, because we are against two opponents out of position. If we donk shove, their calling ranges are stronger than our hand, if we check they can get free cards. Considering everything it should be fold preflop.

Generally it is good practice to follow simple rule: Don't call preflop more than 10% of your stack.
 
thatguy6793

thatguy6793

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Total posts
1,156
Awards
4
Chips
0
@thatguy6793, UTG raiser is 12 bb, it doesn't mean he is going to open wider, in fact we can assume that if he opens 4bb, then he is always going to call 3-bet all-in and never folds. So, his open raise should be similar to preflop shove range, which is top 12%. And in this situation we should just play as if he shoved. If we call and play postflop we will have hard time realizing our equity. How we are going to play on AKx, AQx boards? What we will do with gutshots on a board like ATx? In all this situations we probably would play check fold to all-in, since utg has less than pot bet left. That's why I say our straight draws doesn't mean anything, because we can call all-in with straight draw only if board comes JTx, and even in that situation it is 50/50 at best. Are we going to call huge portion of our stack and pray for K/Q without Ace or flush draw(which comes only once in 8 times)? And even if hit bare king, it is not easy double up, because we are against two opponents out of position. If we donk shove, their calling ranges are stronger than our hand, if we check they can get free cards. Considering everything it should be fold preflop.

Generally it is good practice to follow simple rule: Don't call preflop more than 10% of your stack.

If you actually read the post this is only because it's short stack play, any other time I'm probably not shoving a draw so you should probably look up how to play short stack some more. If you want to fold then go ahead, but just because that's how you play doesn't mean it's literally the only way to play so I would really appreciate it if you weren't so focused on proving you're the only one that's right, I never said you were completely wrong, just wouldn't play so resulted orientated like you.:top:
 
Last edited:
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
If you actually read the post this is only because it's short stack play, any other time I'm probably not shoving a draw so you should probably look up how to play short stack some more. If you want to fold then go ahead, but just because that's how you play doesn't mean it's literally the only way to play so I would really appreciate it if you weren't so focused on attacking my opinion so much.:top:

Well, nothing personal, I don't know you and I am not trying to attack you. I just disagree and sharing my opinion. Calling/going flop all-in with gutshot would be huge mistake, because we will have around 20% against any sensible range there. Folding would be right, not because I play so, but just because all other options are way worse, and partially because of that it is better to fold preflop.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Total posts
860
Chips
0
@thatguy6793, UTG raiser is 12 bb, it doesn't mean he is going to open wider, in fact we can assume that if he opens 4bb, then he is always going to call 3-bet all-in and never folds.

We cannot assume that a freeroll player will do what they should do.

So, his open raise should be similar to preflop shove range, which is top 12%.

Where does this number come from? A chart? Your average freeroll player does not have Nash ranges taped to their desk. They have heard that a king is a good card, so they bet.

Are we going to call huge portion of our stack and pray for K/Q without Ace or flush draw(which comes only once in 8 times)?

Why pray for a flop without a flush draw? If the opponent has a flush draw they are more likely to pay us off when behind in the hand, if we make a pair. And we may have a flush draw ourselves.

It's very difficult to estimate villains's ranges here with the given information, so let's think about it without assigning ranges, except to say that it is likely one opponent has an Ace.

There is a 32% chance of any two unpaired cards making a pair or better on the flop. If there is no A on the flop, any pair the hero makes is top pair.
http://www.suntzupoker.com/poker-odds.aspx
Hero's actual chance of making a pair or better is above 32%, since hero holds suited connectors. But I am not sure how to calculate the actual chance, so let's use the lower number for argument's sake.

If we assume nothing about villains's hands, there is a 77% chance of no aces on the flop.
Hero does not have an ace, leaving 46 non-Ace cards available out of the 50 unknown cards when the first card of the flop is dealt, 45 of 49 for second card, etc.
So P(No Ace on Flop) = 46/50*45/49*44/48 = .77

But with two opponents, there is a good chance one or more of the villains has an ace. If a villain has an Ace, there is an 83% chance of no ace on flop.
47/50*46/49*45/48 = .83

Let's discount that to 81%. We estimate that it is more probable than not that a villain has an Ace, but we would have to be certain that they did to use the full 83% number.

Chance of two independent events both occurring:
.81 * .32 = .26

If I am correct, the odds of hero making top pair with no A on the board is about 1 in 4.

There are 950 chips in the pot and it is 350 to hero to call, so 950:350 = 350 / (950+350) = 27% pot odds.

The chance that the hero makes top with no A on the flop is almost enough to justify the call, if we assume top pair or better wins the hand.
We can't assume that.
But the hero can also make high flushes and straights, trips, two pair, and full houses, and could hit top pair on later streets if the flop checks around. I think a call is more than justified here.

We are ignoring ICM considerations, since it is early in the tournament.

And even if hit bare king, it is not easy double up, because we are against two opponents out of position. If we donk shove, their calling ranges are stronger than our hand

We cannot assume their calling ranges are stronger. They should be stronger, but often they are not.

Generally it is good practice to follow simple rule: Don't call preflop more than 10% of your stack.

I have not heard of this as a general rule, can you provide a source? I've heard of the rule of 5 and 10, which applies to speculative hands. KQs is a hand that often makes top pair, we are not depending solely on sets, flushes, or draws.

In general you are giving far too much credit to the players in this game.
 
Last edited:
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
@AlexTheOwl

1. We also can not assume that he will not do what he should. From my experience, in freerolls, players raise small with weak hands and raise big and commit with strong holdings. So in this case, I realistically assume that his range is strong. It might be even stronger than 12%.

2. Also, shoving ranges for most weak players tighter than it should be, not wider. 12% includes hands like 55, JTs, K9s that we want him to have, but in real life you can almost always exclude those hands from weak player's range.

3.
Are we going to call huge portion of our stack and pray for K/Q without Ace or flush draw(which comes only once in 8 times)?
My bad, I wrote this incorrectly. I meant to say "are we praying for K/Q (without Ace) or a flush draw, i.e. we want to have a flush draw and push on the flop, since we will have enough equity.

4. I think you calculated odds of hitting top pair correctly, but as you said we can't assume that it will win us a whole pot on average. Give it a realistic 60%(should be less than that in my opinion) equity against two opponents and suddenly we get result 16% which is way below of 27% that we need. Possibility of hitting monsters doesn't justify this call.

5. Actually in this situation we can safely assume that if we push their calling ranges will be very strong, because it is very easy spot for villains to play correctly. If you push on Kxx board both of them easily can fold most of their underpairs.

6. It is a common rule, basics of playing with short stack. https://www.cardschat.com/preflop-calling-hand-ranges.php
If your stack size is less than 30 BBs, calling pre-flop should almost be eliminated from your repertoire. You don't want to risk 10 percent - or more - of your stack playing a hand where you need to hit the flop to have a reasonable chance of winning. You need to be protecting your chips and should focus on playing premium hands and taking advantage of position.
 
T

trent32la

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Total posts
2,852
Awards
1
Chips
0
Shove or fold pre.

As played, lead out shove flop.

As played, call it off on the flop.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Total posts
860
Chips
0
1. We also can not assume that he will not do what he should. From my experience, in freerolls, players raise small with weak hands and raise big and commit with strong holdings. So in this case, I realistically assume that his range is strong. It might be even stronger than 12%.

2. Also, shoving ranges for most weak players tighter than it should be, not wider. 12% includes hands like 55, JTs, K9s that we want him to have, but in real life you can almost always exclude those hands from weak player's range.

My experience in freerolls is that most players have little to no familiarity with the idea of commitment, or with the idea of position except as it relates to pre-flop stealing. A 4BB raise does not mean to me that he is only raising his shoving range, even with just 13BB.

I find it very difficult to assign ranges with the information we know. But let's say for the sake of argument that UTG has a 12% range. If we give the second caller a 10% range, since calls should have a tighter range than raises, then hero's equity is 30%.
This is enough to justify a call from the SB from a strict equity and pot odds perspective, though you rightly point out the disadvantages of position and of playablity if an Ace flops.

We may need to agree to disagree about a realistic range for these players.


3.
My bad, I wrote this incorrectly. I meant to say "are we praying for K/Q (without Ace) or a flush draw, i.e. we want to have a flush draw and push on the flop, since we will have enough equity.

Makes sense.

4. I think you calculated odds of hitting top pair correctly, but as you said we can't assume that it will win us a whole pot on average. Give it a realistic 60%(should be less than that in my opinion) equity against two opponents and suddenly we get result 16% which is way below of 27% that we need. Possibility of hitting monsters doesn't justify this call.

You make a good point here. If I use the 12% and 10% ranges discussed and put a Q or K and two random non-Ace cards on the flop in an equity calculator, I get 59% equity if the top pair is a K, 54% if top pair is a queen. So 57% equity on average. That is less than I had anticipated.

26% of the time hero makes top pair or better, and 57% of the time hero wins when that happens, so 15%.

If I add 5% to each villain's starting range, the result doesn't change very much.

This demonstrates that a lot of the hero's 30% equity comes from making flushes or straights on the turn or river. The straights must represent a fairly small portion of this equity, since these are high cards. The flushes do not represent a playability problem, since we are likely to be all in on the flop with a flush draw. I think we are close to break-even here.

5. Actually in this situation we can safely assume that if we push their calling ranges will be very strong, because it is very easy spot for villains to play correctly. If you push on Kxx board both of them easily can fold most of their underpairs.

I would put more Kx in their ranges than you do, and there are draws to consider also. But overall this is a fair point.

6. It is a common rule, basics of playing with short stack. https://www.cardschat.com/preflop-calling-hand-ranges.php

It makes more sense as rule for 30BB and under than it would as a general rule.
I can't claim to be any sort of authority on poker, but that rule seems far too restrictive to me for suited broadway hands.
Having said that, with 30% post-flop equity out of position, I am wondering if a pre-flop shove here is reasonable. Fold equity is not high against typical freeroll players, but the stickier they are, the more equity we have if called.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
@AlexTheOwl, we need big stacks to play drawing hands, because we want bigger implied odds. Once your stack size goes down, value of suited connecters goes down, because you can't chase backdoor draws and gutshots, since you don't have enough implied odds for a profitable call, and value of high cards and pocket pairs goes up. KQs is not exactly what we call suited connecter, but against tight ranges it should be played the same way.

If we assume that first caller doesn't have JJ+, AK in his hand(he should 3-bet those) I think we can consider going all in with KQ, though I still don't like it. Villain 2 will fold quite often, but I don't think Villain 1 has even 20% fold equity.
 
GiGiCat

GiGiCat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Total posts
191
Awards
1
Chips
4
When I play, I have a "default play" for unknown players. If I were playing in my usual live game I'd have called pre-flop just like here.

My experience with these $10 freerolls is that ya have to see what the table dynamics are before you make any hasty decisions unless you're holding pocket Aces or Kings. Sometimes ya have "all in Charlies" that just pelts the table with all in moves until he/she has so many chips you're afraid to challenge them or they bust. other times the entire table is aggressive, and yet other time passive and every mixture in between. Ya gotta wait and see before ya bluff or do stupid shit. I had a little over 18 BB, by calling I still had 14 BB an "M" difference of ~3 with a hand that plays well multi-way and had a short stack not much smaller than the one I started with, which continued to still have fold equity in either this hand or the next 10 hands as I was SB I had the next 9 hands at the cost of any anti.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Total posts
860
Chips
0
@AlexTheOwl, we need big stacks to play drawing hands, because we want bigger implied odds. Once your stack size goes down, value of suited connecters goes down, because you can't chase backdoor draws and gutshots, since you don't have enough implied odds for a profitable call, and value of high cards and pocket pairs goes up. KQs is not exactly what we call suited connecter, but against tight ranges it should be played the same way.

When I said that a general rule against calling with a stack under 30BB is excessive, I wasn't suggesting calling frequently with pocket pairs and low and medium suited connectors heads-up, nor was I suggesting calling a raise from an UTG nit with JTs or KQs.

There are two reasons why I think it is an unsound guideline: equity and balance.

It is often profitable to call in multi-way pots. It is often profitable to call when you have position and a good read on a single opponent's post-flop behavior. It is often profitable to call against a single opponent's wide ranges.
If we have no calling range below 30BB, we are either folding so much that the blinds are going to eat us alive, or raising wide enough that we can be exploited by 4-betting or aggressive post-flop play.
 
Last edited:
A

AlexTheOwl

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Total posts
860
Chips
0
When I play, I have a "default play" for unknown players. If I were playing in my usual live game I'd have called pre-flop just like here.

So these were unknown players?

The bottom line in this hand is that your equity is good but not great, your position and lack of initiative is bad, and although you aren't desperate yet if you lose this hand, you are considerably closer to desperate than you would be if you folded.

After conversation with liu and examining the hand in greater detail, I like the call less than I did at first. I wouldn't recommend it, though I don't think it is a huge mistake in a freeroll because of the wide ranges of many of the players, and their tendency to pay off with weak hands post-flop.

In a live tournament where players paid money to enter, I'd like it a lot less.
 
GiGiCat

GiGiCat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Total posts
191
Awards
1
Chips
4
So these were unknown players?

The bottom line in this hand is that your equity is good but not great, your position and lack of initiative is bad, and although you aren't desperate yet if you lose this hand, you are considerably closer to desperate than you would be if you folded.

After conversation with liu and examining the hand in greater detail, I like the call less than I did at first. I wouldn't recommend it, though I don't think it is a huge mistake in a freeroll because of the wide ranges of many of the players, and their tendency to pay off with weak hands post-flop.

In a live tournament where players paid money to enter, I'd like it a lot less.

I play live and would not have called this hand in the tournaments I play, probably Raise or fold, but not call.

Regards,
GiGiCat:)
 
GiGiCat

GiGiCat

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Total posts
191
Awards
1
Chips
4
Blinds: 50/100

9 players Hero SB (1820), villain 1 UTG +1 (1270), villain 2 CO (4972)

Hero dealt: :qs4: , :ks4:

Villains Unknown

Preflop:

fold, Villain 1 raises $400, 3 folds, Villain 2 calls, fold, hero calls, BB folds

Flop:

:9s4: :js4: :ad4:

Hero Checks
Villain 1 shoves $860 all in
Villain 2 folds
Hero calls

Villain 1 shows :as4: :jh4:

What do my fellow CC members think? I had 12 outs on the flop and think this was a well played hand.

Regards,
GiGiCat:)

I have read over all the post to this thread and all are viable opinions in my mind.

Even though the players were unknown I had an "M" of 12 and if I didn't hit on the flop I would have an "M" of 9 if I had to fold. This is acceptable to me as if you want to get to the final table some risks must be taken. If you just want to make it into the money then a fold would have been perfectly fine. Don't get me wrong, I don't sit and play just any suited connectors from just any postilion, I did feel this was a time most opportune as I had somebody with a shorter stack than I that could try a move and get his/her chips in the middle in a bluff attempt Pre and then again on the flop. In which they did get their chips in the middle but a bluff it was not.

Here is the outcome of the hand:

Villain was all in I called with a little over 400 chips left in my stack

Turn: :8h4::frown:

River: :7s4::D

We don't always win the hand but like Many have said before me and I said earlier in this post "If ya don't take risks, Ya can't make it to the final table"....much less win.

Regards,
GiGiCat:)
 
Last edited:
Top