$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Does this look like a bluff shove to you?

Propane Goat

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This was in a CC freeroll.

Blinds and antes are 50/200/400.

Folded to Hero ($8777), in MP1 with :jc4::10c4:.

Hero raises to $800.

All fold to BB ($6955), BB calls.

Flop: :3c4::3s4::js4:.

BB shoves all-in.

What would you do here, and how do you read this situation?

Hero calls.

BB shows :5s4::3h4:.

Board runs out with no help.

This is the first time I've ever seen anybody shove a set into the initial raiser on the flop, I put villain on some holding like middle pocket pair at the most, or complete air.

I think I bet too light pre, with the antes this gave villain the odds to call from BB with pretty much anything.

Your thoughts appreciated.
 
naruto_miu

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I don't think anyone can answer this question without knowing the BB or how they tend to play (Things of this nature would help)..

I myself would honestly call just to see what the heck they are shoving (I mean a 3, I really doubt just shoves into the O.R raiser), AJ would I assume 3bet you pre, so that leaves the bluff and/or flush draw...Just my 2cents, so quick answer I call
 
loafes

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I think this a strong play by villain simply because the shove looks so suspicious. He can be doing this with a very wide range of hands thus he can probably get paid off by a somewhat wider range by hero. It is true that sometimes hero will have to fold hands that he otherwise would have got value with on the turn, but overall I think villains shove is a good play
 
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If You know what kind of player he is it helps a lot...
there are more types but ill break it down to two 1-loose player 2- tight player.
If he called your preflop raise, if he is:
1. then he might actually have the 3 and I'd fold.
2. He can have a J with higher kicker or even a higher pocket pair.
But then again if he has the 3 he should have called and waited for your raise and then reraised so if he is loose player I would call and if he is a tight player it seems to me that either he is breaking a pattern or he is holding pocket 33 or pocket JJ!
I would fold in this situation.
 
Jostone6

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I do not think the play the villain + EV, because there it just takes a call from a J, set or higher pair, looks like he's afraid of flush, moreover he could not extract anything from a great hand he had.
but I do not stick my tournament in this spot, I prefer the fold.
 
rivernickels

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People are unpredictable in freerolls. Generally, a good player with a 3 would check hoping to induce a c-bet. So, I would conclude weak jack or maybe 2 spades higher than jack or small pair maybe. I would probably have called too. The unpredictability of freeroll players makes getting reads on them even more important than usual. imo. My strategy for freerolls is to play much tighter against the "loose cannons" while blind stealing and c-betting chips away from the tighter ones. So, if i pegged him as the former
I would have folded pre-flop.
 
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steveiam

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Its a CC freeroll so the villain is probably better than your average freeroller. Having said that he could have called your min raise with any suited ace or connectors which means he could easily have a 3 in that range..So the shove with a possible flush draw would be reasonable or even a bigger J. So I probably would have folded, but then I would have raised larger in the first place.
 
naruto_miu

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Its a CC freeroll so the villain is probably better than your average freeroller. Having said that he could have called your min raise with any suited ace or connectors which means he could easily have a 3 in that range..So the shove with a possible flush draw would be reasonable or even a bigger J. So I probably would have folded, but then I would have raised larger in the first place.


A-couple of key points I want to touch up on

1) Have you played the CC games lately (players aren't really all that great), not saying they are awful but realistically the play use to be better in the past rather than now, ppl are open shoving A.I pre at 10/20 blind levels and/or 5xRaising preflop so it's not really all that much better than your normal free rolls...Better pay sure, smaller fields sure, but better play, not really..

2) You stated that villain could have a connector hand correct? So what sort of connected hand would they have that has a 3 in it? 34s/23s/A3s/35s, correct? Once again why would they open donk shove into the original raiser in the 1st place? What good does that really do for them, It doesn't really make them win more, if anything it saves the original raiser from losing more (So this is the biggest reason as to why I really don't think they can have a 3 in there hand)..Now a Jack what type of Jack just open shoves into Original raiser? JQs per-haps, but even then that's a stupid move so it's a weak Jx, or a flush draw, or an out right steal, I mean nothing else it can be really, that makes any sort of sense for this play to even make any sense
 
Loonbat

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A couple things:

I don't mind the min-raise preflop at these levels (meaning both the blind levels and the average level of player. Quite often if a minraise doesn't price them out (ie they really, really can't stand to not see a flop), a 2.5x won't do the job either.

In order to determine if I call or fold, I need a bit of history with player. On a cold read, it's not worth it. You still have a playable 20 BB stack and I fold. The problem here is how much credit do you give opponent? I would expect a solid starting hand to either go-n-go or to reship pre. I would also expect most any PP to reship pre, so I largely discount the pairs you would be beating.

Meh - fold.
 
steveiam

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A-couple of key points I want to touch up on

1) Have you played the CC games lately (players aren't really all that great), not saying they are awful but realistically the play use to be better in the past rather than now, ppl are open shoving A.I pre at 10/20 blind levels and/or 5xRaising preflop so it's not really all that much better than your normal free rolls...Better pay sure, smaller fields sure, but better play, not really..

2) You stated that villain could have a connector hand correct? So what sort of connected hand would they have that has a 3 in it? 34s/23s/A3s/35s, correct? Once again why would they open donk shove into the original raiser in the 1st place? What good does that really do for them, It doesn't really make them win more, if anything it saves the original raiser from losing more (So this is the biggest reason as to why I really don't think they can have a 3 in there hand)..Now a Jack what type of Jack just open shoves into Original raiser? JQs per-haps, but even then that's a stupid move so it's a weak Jx, or a flush draw, or an out right steal, I mean nothing else it can be really, that makes any sort of sense for this play to even make any sense
Firstly I would have to the say the CC freerolls I have played in over the last couple of months are a better standard than the average freerolls. Secondly for the reasons already stated he could easily have a 3 in his hand and in fact he did have a 3 and then the shove to protect from the flush draw would make sense. .Just my opinion though.
 
Propane Goat

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Thanks for your input everyone, I won't name the villain but I will say that it was not somebody who is new to CC. I've only been in the freeroll club for less than two months and the villain was transferred into this table a few hands prior, so I had no reads for this tourney or otherwise.

Looking at the sausage-fingers spelling way the villain commented afterward I don't think they expected to double up off this at all either.

In my study and personal experience, which is limited, I had never come across a situation where somebody donk shoved a set on the flop, so I really didn't know what to make of this other than a weak two-pair or typical bluff steal attempt that you see in public freerolls. Check-raise or bet into pre-flop raiser with a flopped set, I see that frequently, but not an open shove.
 
skrsh76

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I have seen this where the player usually slow plays or not so aggressive and suddenly donk shoves to give an impression it is a bluff. Either case I will make a note and fold.
 
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I don't see people overshove bluff too much. It really is hard to say without a read but to me this just looks like an inexperienced player who is excited with his hand or someone who has a flush draw.
 
Abedin120

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Maybe he bluff, but in this case I will go fold because the opponent maybe have Jack with other card higher than T or maybe A3. I will not risk in this situation and throw away all my chips, so I will go fold and wait other good cards.
 
MisterLongFace

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i get the impression that villian thinks they are making a good play by shoving post flop

this could be AKs, KJ, AJ, QQ (or better), 88 - TT is also possible

me personally, whether or not they have a 3 would not even factor into my thinking

even if you know this player, the way the hand played, there is a lot of guessing here, if you call you are prolly behind, small chance you are ahead

edit: a shove post flop with any kind of 3 in their hand makes no sense here
 
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Propane Goat

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i get the impression that villian thinks they are making a good play by shoving post flop

this could be AKs, KJ, AJ, QQ (or better), 88 - TT is also possible

me personally, whether or not they have a 3 would not even factor into my thinking

even if you know this player, the way the hand played, there is a lot of guessing here, if you call you are prolly behind, small chance you are ahead

edit: a shove post flop with any kind of 3 in their hand makes no sense here

Same, I was nowhere near putting villain on trips here.

I guess the villain thought that shoving would look like a donk bluff so they did it, I've pulled this stunt in the past too on a whim and it's worked for the most part, but it does seem like a stupid move OOP depending on the board texture because it puts your whole tournament on the line for a small pot, villain could be sitting there with the nuts.

One time I had 42o in the BB and it was just me and one limper in MP, I made two pair on the flop which was 42 and some other rag and so I shoved. Villain called with top pair, Ace kicker and lost. I've also shoved one pair on the flop with a draw heavy board and a lot of limpers/calling stations at the table to make them pay or fold, I seriously doubt this is a good play but so far I've won more than I've lost doing it.
 
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its look like a degen bluff but without info off vilain ....

sometimes fold , sometimes call.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Without looking at results, a huge overbet shove like that in a low buyin tourney/freeroll is a draw a disproportionately high amount of the time. Regardless, you can't call as you're only way ahead of a complete bluff or an idiot with a weaker Jx hand and he's not completely bluffing or being completely stupid nearly enough of the time to justify calling.
 
Poker Orifice

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I don't think anyone can answer this question without knowing the BB or how they tend to play (Things of this nature would help)..

I myself would honestly call just to see what the heck they are shoving (I mean a 3, I really doubt just shoves into the O.R raiser), AJ would I assume 3bet you pre, so that leaves the bluff and/or flush draw...Just my 2cents, so quick answer I call
Of course you would... you can't fold, lol.
Actually I think people can answer this even w/o knowing the player.

agree with Loonbat & Dorkus' answers here.

fold & keep your 20bb's. raise size pre was fine.
Also think that's a pretty wide range some others are suggesting that BB would defend pre with if we're playing 20bb's effective.
 
Propane Goat

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I appreciate the help, everyone. I learned a lot from this particular hand, this was a situation I don't see much so getting some feedback really helps me understand what is going on and how to go about analyzing what to do.
 
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ace three would be where I would have interpreted the shove as. lots of players call with a weak suited ace .
 
Propane Goat

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Without looking at results, a huge overbet shove like that in a low buyin tourney/freeroll is a draw a disproportionately high amount of the time. Regardless, you can't call as you're only way ahead of a complete bluff or an idiot with a weaker Jx hand and he's not completely bluffing or being completely stupid nearly enough of the time to justify calling.

+1

Just ran into this situation again. Min-raised UTG in STT with QQ, around 17BB, Villain in blinds had around 12BB, called, then shoved into me on a 775 flop with two hearts. I got suckered into calling again, villain had AhQh and made a flush on the turn. Of course A7 should be well within his range in the BB here too, which I was considering but I called anyway.

I was thinking that top two pair was way ahead of a flush draw but upon running this through an odds calculator, I was only ahead by 56% to 44%. Obviously, I have a leak here with calling big bets on paired boards with only a two pair hand, which is too easy to beat.
 
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