$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Do you slow play when you flop the straight?

Starting Chip Stack: 7,000


Chip Level: 25/50, 50/100, 100/200, 200/400, 300/600 ...


Blind level was 300/600, 8/10 Table, my position: CO, with 11,500 chip.


Small blind was dead, so BB only posts 600.


Everyone folds before me, and I had 10h Jc, my favorite hand, and I min-raised to 1,200.


Button and BB called me.


Flop: As Kc Qh. Pot is 3,600.



BB checked, and there is on player, button, behind me, so I checked, button also checked. (I flopped the nut, but I wanted to check-raise).


Since button checked, one free card was K♠ on the Turn.


Turn: As Kc Qh Ks


BB bet 1,500, less than 1/2 pot. I thought that BB is holding Ax, Kx, Qx, since he just called my raise preflop.If he had KQ, AQ, AK he may bet more, or 3betted pre-flop.


I raised to 5,000, button folds, then BB thinks for few seconds, then he shoved all-in. BB had larger chip stack then me, so I had to all-in call.


But like I said, I thought he would have K-x or A-x, so I snap-called it.


He had Kd 8h. As I expected Kx.


River: As Qh Ks Qs Qc

But Qc came on the river..... KKKQQ full house.

I talked to him later, and he thought I was on a flush draw or had A-x, and did not even think about the straight.

For MTT, I don't usually go all-in or or call all-in, unless I have the nuts. My hand was nut before the turn. I already knew the straight may not be a nut after that K on the turn, however, I had to raise his bet, and call his all-in.


Is this a bad beat? Or is it my fault that I didn't bet when I flop the straight? Shall I just call his 1,500 at the turn?


Please tell me what you think, and what you would do.

Yeah I have had similar outcomes to this in an attempt to trap. I don't think it is best to have a standard move here. You need to know whom you are playing against.

If I am in a vacuum with the player I am playing against I bet simply because you get no value from a check back and no idea what the next card does to your hand. You also need to get a read on this player and the amount you bet can indicate what range of hands you may be looking at. Assuming your read is good.

If you are playing against a known nit you need to bet as well, because why give free cards? If they are going to win at least make them pay for it and realize some of your fold equity while you can.

If a known lag that is betting consistently throughout the game the check/re-raise is a good option. But this assumes you know your opponent. Because as I indicated above, now that the K paired the board you have no info on the player and are stuck with a much weaker hand than you had previous to the turn. Which imo makes it difficult to know where you stand in this hand now.

Regardless of which move you take you will win sometimes and lose sometimes but in my opinion one method over another is dependent on many other factors than just what cards you have and what is on the board. Relative chips stacks are not mentioned here either and that too helps.

As for how you played it? IMO not betting the flop was a mistake but not that big a deal. Consider this, if you have bet the flop and he floated the bet would you feel any different after the turn comes and you are still shoved to?

BB and button should be opening relatively wide here as well as you being in the CO. You calling his allin before the Q rivered seems right to me. You expect him at best to have trips here, a boat is possible but not likely. So you made the right call at the right time you just got UL imo.

Hi there,

Preflop J10o is ok for raise from the CO but have in mind that this is a steal and not a strong hand.
Why is this your favorite hand? Try to not over value it. Most times it's better to fold this hand when someone raises in front of you.

On flop you hit the nuts. No need to slow play it especially against two opponents and never slow play anything unless there's nothing left for your opponents to draw upon. (for example if you have AA and flop a full house).
Here you have the nut hand but your opponents may have many hands that are willing to continue with. So make your standard cbet and play your hand normally because you are losing the opportunity to build the pot, plus that a 10 or J on the turn might stop all the action.

Now the turn is a card that we didn't want to see. Full houses are possible (KQ mainly because AK, QQ or AA would have been 3bet preflop) and probably if someone has a King will go till the end especially in a freeroll.
You decided to raise your opponents bet and you were unlucky to bust on the river.
I don't think that you did something wrong, you were just unlucky this time and actually you put your chips in being the favorite.

That board texture is perfect for a C-bet with the nuts. If your opponents won't call a bet on the flop, they are very unlikely to call any other bets (based on this board texture) unless they out draw you. BET THIS FLOP!!!

brazilpescador said:

it depends on how the other player is, how my image at the table depends on my strategy. the game of poker cannot be cast, you have to adapt all the time

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Yeah, he was drunken enough not to think about straight..

acemenow said:

Yeah I have had similar outcomes to this in an attempt to trap. I don't think it is best to have a standard move here. You need to know whom you are playing against.

If I am in a vacuum with the player I am playing against I bet simply because you get no value from a check back and no idea what the next card does to your hand. You also need to get a read on this player and the amount you bet can indicate what range of hands you may be looking at. Assuming your read is good.

If you are playing against a known nit you need to bet as well, because why give free cards? If they are going to win at least make them pay for it and realize some of your fold equity while you can.

If a known lag that is betting consistently throughout the game the check/re-raise is a good option. But this assumes you know your opponent. Because as I indicated above, now that the K paired the board you have no info on the player and are stuck with a much weaker hand than you had previous to the turn. Which imo makes it difficult to know where you stand in this hand now.

Regardless of which move you take you will win sometimes and lose sometimes but in my opinion one method over another is dependent on many other factors than just what cards you have and what is on the board. Relative chips stacks are not mentioned here either and that too helps.

As for how you played it? IMO not betting the flop was a mistake but not that big a deal. Consider this, if you have bet the flop and he floated the bet would you feel any different after the turn comes and you are still shoved to?

BB and button should be opening relatively wide here as well as you being in the CO. You calling his allin before the Q rivered seems right to me. You expect him at best to have trips here, a boat is possible but not likely. So you made the right call at the right time you just got UL imo.

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He was not a nit player, and drunken, so I knew he would have Ax or Kx with low kicker. He had about 3-4,000 more chips than me, and I felt it was a mistake that I didn't bet the flop.

I asked him if he would call if I bet after the flop, and he said it would depend on the betting size, but he might have call whatever I bet, because I just min-raised preflop that my hand is not that strong as well.

At least if I over-bet the flop, he might have fold. Otherwise, the results might be the same..

Thanks!

moulan7 said:

Hi there,

Preflop J10o is ok for raise from the CO but have in mind that this is a steal and not a strong hand.
Why is this your favorite hand? Try to not over value it. Most times it's better to fold this hand when someone raises in front of you.

On flop you hit the nuts. No need to slow play it especially against two opponents and never slow play anything unless there's nothing left for your opponents to draw upon. (for example if you have AA and flop a full house).
Here you have the nut hand but your opponents may have many hands that are willing to continue with. So make your standard cbet and play your hand normally because you are losing the opportunity to build the pot, plus that a 10 or J on the turn might stop all the action.

Now the turn is a card that we didn't want to see. Full houses are possible (KQ mainly because AK, QQ or AA would have been 3bet preflop) and probably if someone has a King will go till the end especially in a freeroll.
You decided to raise your opponents bet and you were unlucky to bust on the river.
I don't think that you did something wrong, you were just unlucky this time and actually you put your chips in being the favorite.

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Actually, my favorite hand was decided last week, J10d (I started playing poker last summer), because I flopped the straight flush, 7d 8d 9d, when I was SB. Unfortunately, everyone folded before the flop, so I couldn't build the pot properly.

The flop was wet and 3-way pot, so there could be a lot of actions as you mentioned, so I should have c-bet on the flop.. He might have called me even though I bet, since I just min-raised pre-flop, but it is how it is!

Thanks

jordanbillie said:

That board texture is perfect for a C-bet with the nuts. If your opponents won't call a bet on the flop, they are very unlikely to call any other bets (based on this board texture) unless they out draw you. BET THIS FLOP!!!

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Yeah! I would keep in mind to BET THAT FLOP!!

FloptheStraight said:

Actually, my favorite hand was decided last week, J10d (I started playing poker last summer), because I flopped the straight flush, 7d 8d 9d, when I was SB. Unfortunately, everyone folded before the flop, so I couldn't build the pot properly.

The flop was wet and 3-way pot, so there could be a lot of actions as you mentioned, so I should have c-bet on the flop.. He might have called me even though I bet, since I just min-raised pre-flop, but it is how it is!

Thanks

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You're welcome .

You have to remember one thing here.
You don't bet the flop to push him out of the hand, you bet because you want to win his chips.
You want him to call, don't judge by the outcome on this hand.
He did the wrong move, you are happy that he put his chips in on the turn, you were just unlucky.
Whenever we bet a hand we wish that our opponent has a good enough hand to call us and we need to make the correct moves to increase our value. So don't think that the things could happen in a different way when you put your chips in and you are ahead but end up losing.
Also your preflop raise is ok, especially given your stack size in relation with the blinds.
At this point in a mtt (after several blind levels) the standard raise is 2 to 2.5bb.

Actually this hand was ''destined'' for you to lose, unless it was check, check, check till the river where you can safely fold there (happens some times xD).

moulan7 said:

Actually this hand was ''destined'' for you to lose, unless it was check, check, check till the river where you can safely fold there (happens some times xD).

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Yeah, it is tough to beat DESTINY. I will keep in mind what you told me today!

Preflop
I am fine opening this hand from CO, but what is a "favourite hand" for? My favourite hand preflop is AA.

Flop
Just make a standard C-bet. With stacks this short there is no need to go for a fancy check-raise, and by slowplaying a vulnerable hand like a straight you are typically only trapping yourself.

Turn
Not the best card but not as bad, as it might look either. QQ, KK, AA and AK probably 3-bet pre, so you are mostly behind to KQ, and only 6 combos of that hand is possible. He is more likely to have KJ, KT, K9 etc, so definitely still in stack off mode, and since you checked the flop, you do need to raise now to get stacks in. You got it in good, but he had 10 outs, so he will win around 20% of the time. It is, what it is.

Hello, I think that hand JTo from the CO is good to raise. In this situation I think that check this flop for me is a little better option. On the flop we have usually the best hand, the flop is rainbow, no draws to flush, so I play slow play. Besides I don't want to show our opponent that I have something. On the turn when come up second queen I play a little carefully, becuase of the possible full house. Here I see only one sensible hand that will be defend big blind (KQo) and no 3bet pre flop, sometimes there will be weak aces that also will be defend the big blind. In micro tournament on real money, when you check the flop, players from the big blind usually think that you have something weak and they bet second pair. I also play like them. On the turn I play usually call, because possible of full house. If we play here carefully our straight on the turn and on the river come up third queen, we have to fold. Sometimes it happens that on the table come up three the same card and full house is more possible. As played on the turn, this time you had unlucky.

You could bet on the flop and win a small pot perhaps. You have to ask yourself a question. If you get a monster hand, is your goal to win a big pot or a small one ? The opponent was lucky on the river, but there was a threat of a full house on the turn. Therefore, if you call on the turn, you would get the option to fold on the river.

You should not slow play here on the flop and you should make a C bet. With an ace, king and queen on the board it is likely one of your opponents hit something and will therefore call your bet. You can probably make your bet on the bigger side (you don't have to since you are at roughly 18 BB or so but you can) and still get called. Would be different if you flopped a straight with 3,4,5 but with those high cards on the board, your opponents will have enough to call.

FloptheStraight said:

Starting Chip Stack: 7,000


Chip Level: 25/50, 50/100, 100/200, 200/400, 300/600 ...


Blind level was 300/600, 8/10 Table, my position: CO, with 11,500 chip.


Small blind was dead, so BB only posts 600.


Everyone folds before me, and I had 10h Jc, my favorite hand, and I min-raised to 1,200.


Button and BB called me.


Flop: As Kc Qh. Pot is 3,600.



BB checked, and there is on player, button, behind me, so I checked, button also checked. (I flopped the nut, but I wanted to check-raise).


Since button checked, one free card was K♠ on the Turn.


Turn: As Kc Qh Ks


BB bet 1,500, less than 1/2 pot. I thought that BB is holding Ax, Kx, Qx, since he just called my raise preflop.If he had KQ, AQ, AK he may bet more, or 3betted pre-flop.


I raised to 5,000, button folds, then BB thinks for few seconds, then he shoved all-in. BB had larger chip stack then me, so I had to all-in call.


But like I said, I thought he would have K-x or A-x, so I snap-called it.


He had Kd 8h. As I expected Kx.


River: As Qh Ks Qs Qc

But Qc came on the river..... KKKQQ full house.

I talked to him later, and he thought I was on a flush draw or had A-x, and did not even think about the straight.

For MTT, I don't usually go all-in or or call all-in, unless I have the nuts. My hand was nut before the turn. I already knew the straight may not be a nut after that K on the turn, however, I had to raise his bet, and call his all-in.


Is this a bad beat? Or is it my fault that I didn't bet when I flop the straight? Shall I just call his 1,500 at the turn?


Please tell me what you think, and what you would do.

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Thank U 4 Posting

We cannot focus on results. We need to focus on any mistakes we made in the hand.

Where you aware of your stack size?
You have just under 20 BB.
What are the strengths of the J10 off suit hand you find to be your favorite?
Are those strengths still there when we have only 20 BB?

You min raise J10 off with a loose drunk BB. Did you know BB was loose drunk before you min raised J10 with less than 20BB?

Flop: pot is 3600

Do you know what your SPR is at this point?

When we check this flop is it possible that a card might come that we will not get no value from our Vs if we bet turn.

How do we get stacks in on turn and river vs A9-2 single pair hands with our SPR?
What sizing would work to do this?

Why are we letting BTN see turn for free?

Is there a flop bet size that might get Btn to raise us to leverage out BB if they have Ax?


Turn

BB leads We choose a 5k raise size. What is left in your stack after that raise?

What is the nut range you could be holding?

What bluffs would you make there?

What weak pair hands call that raise from a sober person?

BB leads into 2 players not 1, did you consider how strong BB should be to do that?
Would BB do that with a Q?
If BB did it with a A2 would BB call 4500 more?

Your raise size will typically fold out all weak hands and keep in higher equity hands and nut hands. Might there be a better raise size?

This is a tournament and being alive in the tournament is important. That means being cautious when the nut advantage changes. Yes I said it caution. The bane of all AGG poker players.

On the turn if you call the pot will be 3900 + 1500 +1500 =6900 or 8500 if BTN calls.

Your stack will be. 11500 -2700 = 8800

So how do you not stack a K on the river when you have less than 1.5 SPR

How do you not get a check crying call from far weaker than a K when villain thinks you could have a flush draw?

Yet by calling we can fold this river, why because we read our villain correctly. Strong read by you.
Again we knew on the turn our V had a K. V is never folding a K on the river not even if the flush comes. Not for a Jam but V will call a bet. There are no scare cards for V's K that does not also scare us.

We still have 8800 to try to win this tournament with if we just call.

This is not results oriented play. This is tournament play where we can take a lower variance strategy and get as many chips or more when we are still good on the river. After all if we are wrong about V's holding V may bluff river but no bluffs call the turn raise.

That said I hope that you realize that you made several -EV decisions in this hand prior to the turn.
It would be those decisions I suggest you find better strategies for.

Hope this helps

Cool explanations guys! It will be necessary to read this section more often! I'm also for bet on the flop...

For me, there's two rules when you flop a straight with no flush draws. We can check to induce betting from our opponents on the flop or turn, but this is what we call a high variance spot with a bigger payoff. It gives our opponents to improve their hand when we cannot, and they could end up beating us.

Or we play the low variance spot and be the flop to build it ourselves, show strength, and possibly take it down on the flop or turn. This will usually end up not as profitable.

If your opponents tend to float flops with speculative hands, we can see a bet on the flop and let them call and float. If you're opponents are more ABC players that don't play out of line hands, we can check and see what they do. If they bet, we know they have AT LEAST a pair, and we can call/raise to extract more.

It does not always depend on the situation at the table which opponents are playing against you aggressive or tight.

FloptheStraight said:

Starting Chip Stack: 7,000


Chip Level: 25/50, 50/100, 100/200, 200/400, 300/600 ...


Blind level was 300/600, 8/10 Table, my position: CO, with 11,500 chip.


Small blind was dead, so BB only posts 600.


Everyone folds before me, and I had 10h Jc, my favorite hand, and I min-raised to 1,200.


Button and BB called me.


Flop: As Kc Qh. Pot is 3,600.



BB checked, and there is on player, button, behind me, so I checked, button also checked. (I flopped the nut, but I wanted to check-raise).


Since button checked, one free card was K♠ on the Turn.


Turn: As Kc Qh Ks


BB bet 1,500, less than 1/2 pot. I thought that BB is holding Ax, Kx, Qx, since he just called my raise preflop.If he had KQ, AQ, AK he may bet more, or 3betted pre-flop.


I raised to 5,000, button folds, then BB thinks for few seconds, then he shoved all-in. BB had larger chip stack then me, so I had to all-in call.


But like I said, I thought he would have K-x or A-x, so I snap-called it.


He had Kd 8h. As I expected Kx.


River: As Qh Ks Qs Qc

But Qc came on the river..... KKKQQ full house.

I talked to him later, and he thought I was on a flush draw or had A-x, and did not even think about the straight.

For MTT, I don't usually go all-in or or call all-in, unless I have the nuts. My hand was nut before the turn. I already knew the straight may not be a nut after that K on the turn, however, I had to raise his bet, and call his all-in.


Is this a bad beat? Or is it my fault that I didn't bet when I flop the straight? Shall I just call his 1,500 at the turn?


Please tell me what you think, and what you would do.

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To be honest there isn't a concrete line to take. Maybe a small bet to built a pot that can get called by a player who connected on the flop. Small lead would look weak and could cause your opponent to bluff over the top. This adds value and builds a pot for later streets. Also a min bet could protect your hand from Ak AQ KQ. If your opponent did have two pair on the flop he would most likely slow play with the rainbow flop. So basically the min bet would unknowingly protect your stack with a little pot control. Runner Runner for the Boat is unfortunate. I would have taken the same line as you. Good Luck


Good Luck To All