$Freeroll NLHE MTT: AQ in UTG+1 and 3bet UTG+2

lilu80

lilu80

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Hi, How do you play this?

SB: t42746 M = 5.18
BB: t24682 M = 2.99
UTG: t154874 M = 18.77
Hero (UTG+1): t109920 M = 13.32
UTG+2: t88946 M = 10.78
MP1: t106780 M = 12.94
MP2: t76273 M = 9.25
CO: t67843 M = 8.22
BTN: t42336 M = 5.13

Pre Flop: (t8250) Hero is UTG+1 with A :spade: Q :heart:
1 fold, Hero raises to t5000, UTG+2 raises to t23250, 6 folds
 
PCK

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Any info on villain? Without info i would fold here
 
lilu80

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Villaim loos passive 35/0 with aqq 1
 
suby_rafael

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Folding this seems right here. The 3bet sizing by the villain is just too big to call and see the flop. Even though we would have been out of position against villain we could have peeled the flop had it been a standard one. :icon_shak
 
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bremensha

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seeing a raise and a big reraise iin early position from medium or fat stacked opponents you need QQ+ or AK to compete further
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Yeah fold. I thought fold even before I saw his stats which just reinforce it. AQ is really only happy to GII vs a worse ace and since he is limpy loose passive it's unlikely he just decided to go crazy with a weak ace. Limpy passive players tend to flat with their weak/ medium aces. He probably has a hand that is afraid like TT-KK or possibly AQ/AK.
 
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hffjd2000

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The problem is, what would we do on the flop if we dont hit.

Most likely he would continue his aggression postflop.
 
atlantafalcons0

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Why even play it? You're going to be OOP on everyone except blinds. I don't like even raising it, fold pre.

As played fold pre.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Why even play it? You're going to be OOP on everyone except blinds. I don't like even raising it, fold pre.

As played fold pre.

Well I personally think that's too nitty. Just because bad things could happen doesn't mean we should be gunshy in early position with our medium/strong hands.

If you're open folding AQ in early pos you'll be playing far too few hands from early pos making your range really easy to read and therefore making you very easy to play against.
 
atlantafalcons0

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Yes but if you're raising AQ in utg +1 you'll see yourself get 3bet often by players in position. I'd do this with AK, but not AQ.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Yes but if you're raising AQ in utg +1 you'll see yourself get 3bet often by players in position. I'd do this with AK, but not AQ.

And they can 3bet you when you have AK too. Same difference. They don't smell the queen. You're in basically the same decision matrix with AK and AQ when facing a 3bet.
 
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I hate it when people making threads and giving enough info to get everybody excited but not enough to get good analyse out! its like half-hard situation for me or half-wet or whatever!

Working out ranges: well he is loose passive and 3bet quite large amount chips - maybe this player hates min bet from utg and decides to go fancy (maybe he just opening his game since blinds went up)! But probably this is not the case - he has made hand probably and definetly does not want to see the flop or active players to stick around - basically he is saying you better fold, this pot is mine! Most likely a huge part of his value range here contains pocket pairs - basically if we hit a A on flop we will dominating huge part of his possible range!

Summary: I am folding too!
 
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i know nothing about how the freeroll games play but i can't see folding here in general, if you get it in with AK you should probably move it in with AQ too for the same reasons.
 
slicheri93

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I would fold he has K K, AA QQ, a,k there,
 
X

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if you have seen him playing 35/0, I think he has a really strong hand here, because otherwise he would just have called your raise. So I also see his range like slicheri93: QQ+, AK and against this range you are a huge underdog. calling is difficult, because your out of position and if you hit an A, you would probably go broke against AK (or AA, but this is course a bit unlikly), against other hands it would be difficult to get value more than one street. So I would fold here after his raise, but I also don't like openfolding.
 
atlantafalcons0

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And they can 3bet you when you have AK too. Same difference. They don't smell the queen. You're in basically the same decision matrix with AK and AQ when facing a 3bet.

Ever have to worry about AK when holding AK? No. Only two hands crush AK. Four hands crush AQ. I disagree with you. AQ is a terrible hand in EP IMO.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Ever have to worry about AK when holding AK? No. Only two hands crush AK. Four hands crush AQ. I disagree with you. AQ is a terrible hand in EP IMO.

I understand that AQ is a dog to AK. AQ is also a top 5% hand. My point is that when you open with AQ in early pos and get 3bet the criteria affecting your decision will be almost the same. "Is he 3 betting me light?" "Will I be OOP vs a tough opponent?" "Should I flat, fold or 4bet?" "Do I want to flip right now?" "Will this player fold to my stop n go?" "Will I be pot committed with a flop bet". Etc etc is all essentially the same whether you hold AK or AQ. The only variable that changes is "how am I doing vs his 3betting range here?" And usually AQ is only slightly worse off than AK in comparison to total ranges.

If you're open folding a top 5% hand from early position because you're afraid of getting 3bet that's your call but I think it's really nitty. Even if you assume they only 3bet you for value with a top 3% hand you could just fold when that happens and still be ok playing AQ in early pos because it isn't that frequent somebody wakes up with a top 3% hand. Assuming 8 people are left to act then only 22% of the time somebody wakes up with a top 3% hand. Which means usually you won't be crushed when playing AQ in early pos. but sometimes you will be and based on your read you can just fold. No problem.
 
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I saw some stats recently that suggest AQo is the 18th best starting hand in poker which puts it just outside the top 10%. AQs, however, is ranked 6th. I am really interested in the discussion around EP opening as, for example, KTs (also QTs and JTs) is rated higher than AQo but instinctively I want to fold the KTs but open with the AQo. Maybe I'm a nit! Would appreciate other's thoughts.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I saw some stats recently that suggest AQo is the 18th best starting hand in poker which puts it just outside the top 10%. AQs, however, is ranked 6th. I am really interested in the discussion around EP opening as, for example, KTs (also QTs and JTs) is rated higher than AQo but instinctively I want to fold the KTs but open with the AQo. Maybe I'm a nit! Would appreciate other's thoughts.

well, I don't know what kind of hand ranking table you're looking at. There are a few different ones out there but every one I've seen put AQ squarely in the top 5%. For AQ to be the 18th best starting hand that would mean all the pairs are better (13 starting hands) then Aks (14) then AKo (15) what would come in at 16th and 17th places then? And for me I'd rank AQ better than most of the small pairs (even though technically in preflop all in scenarios the 22 are ahead, we're talking playability from early position here...)

Some hand ranking charts argue over which is stronger AKs or QQ? But I've never seen any suggest that KTs is better than AQo. I mean at some point hand ranking charts are just a matter of opinion unless you're talking preflop all in race odds (which we're not).

Anyways, about the question of early position hands AQo is definitely in my early position opening range. As well as AJs, KQs and pocket pairs down to 66. This is all table dependent and stack size dependent but in general I am playing the top 7% of hands from every position and it just widens from there. As your post flop skills increase you can justify playing more pots. It is probably wise to be pretty nitty while learning the game but even then, open folding AQo from any position is just too nitty for my liking.

If I'm at a soft table I may open wider than 7% in EP. If I'm on the bubble with a big stack or at a really nitty table I may open in EP as wide as 15%. But I'd never go lower than 5-6% except in extremely rare situations.
 
EvertonGirl

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well, I don't know what kind of hand ranking table you're looking at. There are a few different ones out there but every one I've seen put AQ squarely in the top 5%. For AQ to be the 18th best starting hand that would mean all the pairs are better (13 starting hands) then Aks (14) then AKo (15) what would come in at 16th and 17th places then? And for me I'd rank AQ better than most of the small pairs (even though technically in preflop all in scenarios the 22 are ahead, we're talking playability from early position here...)

Some hand ranking charts argue over which is stronger AKs or QQ? But I've never seen any suggest that KTs is better than AQo. I mean at some point hand ranking charts are just a matter of opinion unless you're talking preflop all in race odds (which we're not).

Anyways, about the question of early position hands AQo is definitely in my early position opening range. As well as AJs, KQs and pocket pairs down to 66. This is all table dependent and stack size dependent but in general I am playing the top 7% of hands from every position and it just widens from there. As your post flop skills increase you can justify playing more pots. It is probably wise to be pretty nitty while learning the game but even then, open folding AQo from any position is just too nitty for my liking.

If I'm at a soft table I may open wider than 7% in EP. If I'm on the bubble with a big stack or at a really nitty table I may open in EP as wide as 15%. But I'd never go lower than 5-6% except in extremely rare situations.

I thought I was a nit, hell would freeze over before I fold AQ in EP.
 
atlantafalcons0

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Ad Qs is actually ranked 18th (10.65%) since it's not suited. As Qs is ranked 6th. (3.55%)


[Kd Qs is 20th and 6d6s is ranked 36th]

[11.83% and 21.3% respectively]


2uqk7b8.png
 
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RamdeeBen

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Either 4B shove or fold.

His none all-in 3B from these positions of 20bb< just looks so strong. For an 18bb to take this line, I'd imagine we're in terrible shape with AQ here. Default would be just to fold. Had the positions been different, like LP vs us on the BTN, it's easier to get it in pre flop here.

With all that said though, some info on the player would be very handy here. Some stats maybe? It's a freeroll so I'd be inclined to just gamble but if we're wanting to play solid good poker it's just a fold.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Ad Qs is actually ranked 18th (10.65%) since it's not suited. As Qs is ranked 6th. (3.55%)


[Kd Qs is 20th and 6d6s is ranked 36th]

[11.83% and 21.3% respectively]


2uqk7b8.png


Both of those charts are not useful to us in real life hand analysis and determining profitability because (if you bothered to read the fine print) these are no-foldem hand rankings. Which assumes all 9 players go to the river. When is the last time you were at a table when all 9 players went all in preflop? In fact these would be closest to accurate for freerolls but even in freerolls I sometimes see between 3-5 people go all in preflop but not all 9.

This is the danger of putting these kinds if tools in the hands if learning players; the potential for misinformation is huge. Same with Nash charts. The tool is there to help give you an idea of preflop race odds but since people don't actually play that way trying to build a strategy around this chart or a Nash chart is suicide.

For example in most real tourneys there might be 2 or 3 people all in, rarely more. If player A has JTs and player B has AJs and I have AQo I have the best hand Everytime for our situation. If AJs wants to believe their hand is stronger than mine because it's suited then they can go ahead and believe that but it's a delusional thought process that would be a huge leak.

JTs 24% vs AJs. 19% Vs AQo 47% and the remainder is due to some small amount of ties.

By all means if you guys want to believe AQo is only a top 10% hand and fold it in early position be my guest. More pots for me, yay!
 
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Jacki Burkhart

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By the way you guys would all really benefit from downloading a poker odds poker cruncher. I think the basic is only $2 but I would recommend the $5 full version. There are also free poker calculators that are decent. These are usually based on the sklansky hand rankings which are considered by most knowledgable players to be pretty accurate for real life.

I used a free poker App for years and would run hands constantly in break or after tourneys and it really helps you get an idea. Nowadays I have basically internalized how any 2 hands do against eachother preflop and on the flop so I pretty much only use it for multi player pots or for weighted ranges. It will immensely improve your push/fold game after spending just a few hours playing around with an app like this.
 
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