$Freeroll NLHE MTT: AK suited facing UTG raise with callers

cgcook38 · Jul 25, 2018

After not much happening in the early rounds of this ACR freeroll, I ran into a spot that I thought was interesting. I had just moved tables and only saw six hands with these players before this hand was dealt.

I am on the button, and what I did know is as follows:

BB - Seat 8: AlphaPrimate (14878). Two showdowns with excellent hands
UTG - Seat 9: jinyu1976 (29958). Three showdowns with maniac hands

If you have some time, I would like to know: What is your move here and why, specifically?

Table and Position Review

Game started at: 2018/7/25 9:47:32
Game ID: 1234419255 100/200 $10 Freeroll - On Demand, Table 29 (Hold'em)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: kbuinowski1 (2875).
Seat 2: segev1 (24271).
Seat 3: whoopwhoop... (5042).
Seat 4: shay6481 (1606).
Seat 5: CgCook38 (1540).
Seat 6: jrad2313 (160).
Seat 8: AlphaPrimate (14878).
Seat 9: jinyu1976 (29958).
Player jrad2313 ante (20)
Player AlphaPrimate ante (20)
Player jinyu1976 ante (20)
Player kbuinowski1 ante (20)
Player segev1 ante (20)
Player whoopwhoop... ante (20)
Player shay6481 ante (20)
Player CgCook38 ante (20)

*** Blinds ***
Player jrad2313 has small blind (100)
Player AlphaPrimate has big blind (200)

*** Preflop ***
Player CgCook38 received card: [ Ac: ]
Player CgCook38 received card: [ Kc: ]
Player jinyu1976 raises (400)
Player kbuinowski1 folds
Player segev1 calls (400)
Player whoopwhoop... calls (400)
Player shay6481 folds
Player CgCook38......

Pot size 1660, 400 is the bet and I have 1520

t1riel · Jul 25, 2018

You're one of the small stacks on the table. I would shove here.

Luvepoker · Jul 26, 2018

To be honest this would be an easy shove all in for me. AK suited and you are a short stack that needs to play. Calling with such a large part of you stack would not be a good thing as then what would you do if you missed the flop as you will 1/3 of the time? I will admit due to the other players stack sizes you probably have no fold equity but I would shove every time. If you win you have a healthy stack again.

Maurits92 · Jul 27, 2018

You have 7BB left. This is a shove. You would normally 3bet this hand to around what you have left in chips and calling here would be too conservative for my play. Problem is you may get 3 callers, as this is a freeroll and people tend to overcall. Wouldn't be surprised to see a Q7o come along for 1600 preflop, after investing 400 already. Upside is you probably have the best hand

xbursonicx · Jul 27, 2018

Why would you considered this spot interesting? It's pretty standard meaning you have only one option - go all-in regardless of actions by other players. Reason: your stack is too small and it's unlikely you'll have better hand before you blind out.

cgcook38 · Jul 27, 2018

xbursonicx said:
Why would you considered this spot interesting? It's pretty standard meaning you have only one option - go all-in regardless of actions by other players. Reason: your stack is too small and it's unlikely you'll have better hand before you blind out.

Why would you not consider other options?

I have to come out of this with chips, therefore I’m not interested in hands where I am “ahead” but I lose more often then I win.

What are my odds against 3 random hands vs 4 with AKs. And the ranges will be higher than “random hands”. How does AKs look against one top 25% and one top 50% hand? How long before my odds are so low that I would rather shove 23o against just the blinds if I get a lucky fold around in position? What about my odds w something like Q7o with possible fold equity UTG? Are my odds better with that against one opponent than the AKs against 4?

These are all interesting thoughts to me. I don’t think this is an auto-shove spot or I wouldn’t have asked. You obviously do and that’s fine. I would love for information as to why. When does AKs become a fold for you?

cgcook38 · Jul 27, 2018

ken nielson said:
To be honest this would be an easy shove all in for me. AK suited and you are a short stack that needs to play. Calling with such a large part of you stack would not be a good thing as then what would you do if you missed the flop as you will 1/3 of the time? I will admit due to the other players stack sizes you probably have no fold equity but I would shove every time. If you win you have a healthy stack again.

The fold equity is the tough part for me. It’s a weird spot where I almost know for sure that I will have at least a 3-way pot - maybe 4. Am I less than a coin flip against the field in those spots? I don’t know and would love to see a chart of AKs vs random hands in a multi way pot.

If I’m less than 50% to win against 3 randoms, I should actually fold every time, right? Because this isn’t a cash game - I go home if I lose.

But it’s more complicated because I’m short, and I may end up going all in w J5 at some point. So my odds here only need to be better than what I can get with a random hand w fold equity. So I probably only need to win about 35% of the time. ?? I don’t know. I need more math tables!!

akmost · Jul 27, 2018

You will not always win with the best hand but AKs here is a standard all in, you have the best possible suited connectors and many times you will flop well.After the hand you may eliminate or you may double or triple up.Flips are part of the game.

You are slightly behind of many pocket pairs , even 22 is ahead of you preflop , but suited connectors are the best hands for improvements after the flop.

If you just call and see a flop and you miss , what will be your move after a cbet? That's why we try to diminish such situations by going all in. It is the most +EV move.

The only time I fold here is if I were at the stone bubble of a satellite tournament, sometimes I would muck even AA.

Download something like Equilab and play with ranges and flop scenarios it will help you.

nml · Jul 27, 2018

I think you have more fold equity than you think.

1 - this would be a standard reraise situation, and loose players fold to those all the time. You probably won’t get credit for such a hand since you’re the short stack, but there is fold equity here. If there’s not, it’s only because it’s a freeroll and everyone is a calling station

2 - everyone else isn’t shoving, so it’s unlikely that everyone makes it to showdown. If the flop comes Axx and AQ bets heavy, other broadway cards and small pocket pairs probably fold.

Luvepoker · Jul 27, 2018

cgcook38 said:
The fold equity is the tough part for me. It’s a weird spot where I almost know for sure that I will have at least a 3-way pot - maybe 4. Am I less than a coin flip against the field in those spots? I don’t know and would love to see a chart of AKs vs random hands in a multi way pot.

If I’m less than 50% to win against 3 randoms, I should actually fold every time, right? Because this isn’t a cash game - I go home if I lose.

But it’s more complicated because I’m short, and I may end up going all in w J5 at some point. So my odds here only need to be better than what I can get with a random hand w fold equity. So I probably only need to win about 35% of the time. ?? I don’t know. I need more math tables!!

You are in a weird spot for sure here. I cant answer the the math question at this moment as i am not home but most likely you are not 50% to win this hand. The thing you should think about is what good reason could you fold? You could fold to wait for a better hand but the odds of it coming before you lose all you chips are not good. Like you said do you want to go all in with something like J5, probably not. AKs is a top 3 hand to most people. What better hands are you going to wait for? Aces or Kings? I would go all in here vs these players every time.

Yes this in not a cash game and if you lose you are done but no you should not fold every time. Unless the player is a super nit I would not fold as you are ahead of most players ranges you will face. Based on there stack sizes and what you said you will likely get called later on as well since you stack will just be getting shorter and shorter. If you get so short the BB will even have the odds to call you with 72o. Or worse at the 200/400 level with an Ante you shove your pocket aces UTG and get called by 4 people and loose to absolute trash hand.

When i get home tonight i will run AKs for you against 2 random callers ranges for you.

cgcook38 · Jul 27, 2018

nml said:
2 - everyone else isn’t shoving, so it’s unlikely that everyone makes it to showdown. If the flop comes Axx and AQ bets heavy, other broadway cards and small pocket pairs probably fold.

I hadn’t considered this and it’s an excellent point. Especially with a maniac at the table, I may end up HU after all. Thanks.

ken nielson said:
Unless the player is a super nit I would not fold as you are ahead of most players ranges you will face.

Yes! Good thought here. I’m only 6 hands in at this table and already I see I have the opposite of a nit raising UTG. He could have ATC and the players calling after probably know that. This is even more fold equity for me! The BB is also seemingly wise enough to start w good hands in the two showdowns I’ve seen them in. So they will likely fold.

xbursonicx · Jul 27, 2018

cgcook38 said:
Why would you not consider other options?

I have to come out of this with chips, therefore I’m not interested in hands where I am “ahead” but I lose more often then I win.

What are my odds against 3 random hands vs 4 with AKs. And the ranges will be higher than “random hands”. How does AKs look against one top 25% and one top 50% hand? How long before my odds are so low that I would rather shove 23o against just the blinds if I get a lucky fold around in position? What about my odds w something like Q7o with possible fold equity UTG? Are my odds better with that against one opponent than the AKs against 4?

These are all interesting thoughts to me. I don’t think this is an auto-shove spot or I wouldn’t have asked. You obviously do and that’s fine. I would love for information as to why. When does AKs become a fold for you?

There is no need to think about odds and stuff in this case because:

It's "On Demand" ACR freeroll which pays to top 10 players. You are at table 29 which means there are at least 250 players left. If you aren't going to use best hands appropriately you never get ITM
This freeroll is scheduled on per-hour basis so if you're unlucky you can play next freeroll in no time
Many players in freerolls play pretty wide so most likely you won't be able to find your "ideal" spot to put your chips on the table

So you have literally no reason not to shove.

In any case as for questions about your odds with AK in different situations you check it out yourself: http://propokertools.com/simulations

cgcook38 · Jul 27, 2018

xbursonicx said:
There is no need to think about odds and stuff in this case because:

It's "On Demand" ACR freeroll which pays to top 10 players. You are at table 29 which means there are at least 250 players left. If you aren't going to use best hands appropriately you never get ITM

This freeroll is scheduled on per-hour basis so if you're unlucky you can play next freeroll in no time

Many players in freerolls play pretty wide so most likely you won't be able to find your "ideal" spot to put your chips on the table

So you have literally no reason not to shove.

I am trying to get better. Having reasoning why I have "literally no reason not to shove" is literally why I am on this forum. I like to play any tournament, whether free or a $100 buy in, by making the best decisions possible. I think asking questions is a great way to get there.

Thanks for the link!

cgcook38 · Jul 27, 2018

Thanks for the thoughts. They have helped me with perspective! Here's how the hand ran out.....

I didn't think long about this at all. I remember saying to my wife, who was across the room, "Welp, looks like this will be my last hand."

At the time, I thought I would get more callers, and I was pleasantly surprised to see both that I only got two, and that I was ahead. Running through Equilab (thanks for the recommendation), it looks like I should win here at almost exactly 50% once their cards came up.

I do like to think though - if I knew exactly how many callers I would get, how many before this turns from a near auto-shove to a near auto-fold?

Table and Position Review
Game started at: 2018/7/25 9:47:32

Game ID: 1234419255 100/200 $10 Freeroll - On Demand, Table 29 (Hold'em)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: kbuinowski1 (2875).
Seat 2: segev1 (24271).
Seat 3: whoopwhoop... (5042).
Seat 4: shay6481 (1606).
Seat 5: CgCook38 (1540).
Seat 6: jrad2313 (160).
Seat 8: AlphaPrimate (14878).
Seat 9: jinyu1976 (29958).
Player jrad2313 ante (20)
Player AlphaPrimate ante (20)
Player jinyu1976 ante (20)
Player kbuinowski1 ante (20)
Player segev1 ante (20)
Player whoopwhoop... ante (20)
Player shay6481 ante (20)
Player CgCook38 ante (20)

*** Blinds ***
Player jrad2313 has small blind (100)
Player AlphaPrimate has big blind (200)

*** Preflop ***
Player CgCook38 received card: [ Ac: ]
Player CgCook38 received card: [ Kc: ]
Player jinyu1976 raises (400)
Player kbuinowski1 folds
Player segev1 calls (400)
Player whoopwhoop... calls (400)
Player shay6481 folds
Player CgCook38 allin (1520)
Player jrad2313 folds
Player AlphaPrimate folds
Player jinyu1976 calls (1120)
Player segev1 folds
Player whoopwhoop... allin (4622)
Player jinyu1976 calls (3502)

*** Flop ***
[ 4h: Tc: 5c: ]

*** Turn ***
[ 4h: Tc: 5c: ] [ 5s: ]

*** River ***
[ 4h: Tc: 5c: 5s: ] [ 3s: ]

*** Hand Summary ***

Pot: 12424. Rake 0
Board: [ 4h: Tc: 5c: 5s: 3s: ]
Player kbuinowski1 does not show cards.Bets: 20. Collects: 0. Loses: 20.
Player segev1 does not show cards.Bets: 420. Collects: 0. Loses: 420.
Player whoopwhoop... shows: One pair of 5s: [ Jh: Ks: ] . Bets: 5042. Collects: 0. Loses: 5042.
Player shay6481 does not show cards.Bets: 20. Collects: 0. Loses: 20.
Player CgCook38 shows: One pair of 5s: [ Ac: Kc: ] . Bets: 1540. Collects: 0. Loses: 1540.
Player jrad2313 does not show cards.Bets: 120. Collects: 0. Loses: 120.
Player AlphaPrimate does not show cards.Bets: 220. Collects: 0. Loses: 220.
*Player jinyu1976 shows: Two pairs. 5s: and 3s: [ Ah: 3h: ] . Bets: 5042. Collects: 12424. Wins: 7382.
Game ended at: 2018/7/25 9:48:19

nml · Jul 27, 2018

cgcook38 said:
I am trying to get better. Having reasoning why I have "literally no reason not to shove" is literally why I am on this forum. I like to play any tournament, whether free or a $100 buy in, by making the best decisions possible. I think asking questions is a great way to get there.

Thanks for the link!

This is definitely the right mindset!

These types of hands happen all the time in freerolls - you’ve got great equity here to triple up, but you miss the board. I mean, shoving A3 or KJ is such a -EV play, but sometimes it works out for the fish

Well played!

Luvepoker · Jul 27, 2018

cgcook38 said:
If I’m less than 50% to win against 3 randoms, I should actually fold every time, right? Because this isn’t a cash game - I go home if I lose.
!

As promised i ran the numbers. I ran this assuming the players are only calling 20% of hand, Just remember is the are tighter your odd go down but if they are loser the odds get better.

AKs is 44.6% to win against 2 players and 34.6% against 3 players.

Its sad you lost the hand but you were way ahead of them all.

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$Freeroll NLHE MTT: AK suited facing UTG raise with callers

cgcook38

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t1riel

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Luvepoker

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Maurits92

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xbursonicx

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cgcook38

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cgcook38

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akmost

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nml

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Luvepoker

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cgcook38

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xbursonicx

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cgcook38

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cgcook38

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nml

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Luvepoker

Lost in the twilight zone

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