$Freeroll NLHE MTT: AA close to bubble CC freeroll. Should this have been a shove rather than 3bb raise?

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IanP304

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$Freeroll NLHE MTT: AA close to bubble CC freeroll. Should this have been a shove rather than 3bb raise?

This hand was my exit hand in last nights $100 PS CC freeroll, close to the bubble. Did I make a mistake by not open jamming, as if I had surely the 94o would have folded? Or was this the correct play and just unlucky?

Thanks
Ian


pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (25 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

greatgame230 (UTG): 5,595 (19 bb)
ricsi1987 (UTG+1): 8,665 (29 bb)
fernandovr (MP): 8,508 (28 bb)
IanP84 (MP+1): 4,631 (15 bb)
Aa1234Bb (CO): 4,754 (16 bb)
dibu103 (BU): 6,104 (20 bb)
Risto515 (SB): 9,670 (32 bb)
ToNy70929 (BB): 15,306 (51 bb)

Pre-Flop: (650) Hero (IanP84) is MP+1 with A A
3 players fold, IanP84 (MP+1) raises to 600, 3 players fold, ToNy70929 (BB) 3-bets to 15,281 (all-in), IanP84 (MP+1) calls 4,006 (all-in)

Flop: (9,562) 5 9 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (9,562) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (9,562) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 9,562

Showdown:
ToNy70929 (BB) shows 9 4 (two pair, Nines and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 69%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

IanP84 (MP+1) shows A A (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 31%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

ToNy70929 (BB) wins 9,562
 
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zhilipp

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I´d say unlucky. You wanted some value with your monster wich unfortunately didn´t pay off.
 
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fundiver199

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With 15BB I would typically either open push or make a smaller raise than 3BB. The reason is, any 3-bet is going to be a jam, so why not put yourself in a situation, where you lose less, when you fold. A standard open like 2,2-2,5BB with your entire range is probably the best play in this exact spot.

Also you absolutely want to get AA all in preflop against 94 offsuit. You dont want him to fold, when you are this far ahead. So if you are going to split your range and have some hands, that jam, and others that mini-raise, then AA has to mini-raise. Looking to avoid a very profitable situation, because you got unlucky, is called being results oriented, and its something, you need to learn to avoid.
 
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IanP304

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With 15BB I would typically either open push or make a smaller raise than 3BB. The reason is, any 3-bet is going to be a jam, so why not put yourself in a situation, where you lose less, when you fold. A standard open like 2,2-2,5BB with your entire range is probably the best play in this exact spot.

Also you absolutely want to get AA all in preflop against 94 offsuit. You dont want him to fold, when you are this far ahead. So if you are going to split your range and have some hands, that jam, and others that mini-raise, then AA has to mini-raise. Looking to avoid a very profitable situation, because you got unlucky, is called being results oriented, and its something, you need to learn to avoid.
Thanks this is what I was thinking, I obvs wanted to get the hand all-in pre against opponents hand. I was just unsure of whether I should have just jammed (which I did consider at the time) or if the bet sizing was wrong for the raise.

I like the idea of reducing my sizing to 2.2-2.5bb opens for my entire range as I am not a fan of just 2bb min raising.

Thanks for the advice appreciate it, and I will defo try focus on being less "results orientated".
 
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fundiver199

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Just want to add a few words about the dynamics, which might have been in place here. Most people, who play the CC club freerolls, are at least decent players. So presumably this guy was not drunk or “crazy” but trying to take advantage of his stack size to push the rest of the table around on the bubble.

If you had noticed that kind of behavior, then this was definitely a spot, where you want to split your range and jam anything, that would fold to a 3-bet and only make the standard open with hands, you want to call him off with. And if he jam this wide, you should be willing to get it in fairly wide as well.

I also want to add, that the bubble in this particular tournament does not even matter. It has a fairly deep payout structure, where a lot of players get paid, but the real money is at the final table. Typically 200 people play, so if it was a paid tournament, it would be a 50c+5c. And typically a min-cash is 60c, which is only a little more than the hypothetical buyin.

So don’t let someone like this push you around on the bubble. See his stack as a chance to dubble up, so that maybe you can reach the final table and not just cash for 60c. The structure is actually very similar to the 180 man SnGs on Stars, so the CC freeroll is a great practice for those.
 
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Just want to add a few words about the dynamics, which might have been in place here. Most people, who play the CC club freerolls, are at least decent players. So presumably this guy was not drunk or “crazy” but trying to take advantage of his stack size to push the rest of the table around on the bubble.

If you had noticed that kind of behavior, then this was definitely a spot, where you want to split your range and jam anything, that would fold to a 3-bet and only make the standard open with hands, you want to call him off with. And if he jam this wide, you should be willing to get it in fairly wide as well.

I also want to add, that the bubble in this particular tournament does not even matter. It has a fairly deep payout structure, where a lot of players get paid, but the real money is at the final table. Typically 200 people play, so if it was a paid tournament, it would be a 50c+5c. And typically a min-cash is 60c, which is only a little more than the hypothetical buyin.

So don’t let someone like this push you around on the bubble. See his stack as a chance to dubble up, so that maybe you can reach the final table and not just cash for 60c. The structure is actually very similar to the 180 man SnGs on Stars, so the CC freeroll is a great practice for those.
Again grat advice thank you.

I hadn't noticed him trying to use his stack to his advantage mainly as I had just moved to the table a couple hands prior.

Absolutely agree, wasnt so much bother about a min cash, wanted to get my chips in to give me a shot at getting to the FT are at least close. Only had chance to play a handful of these CC freerolls so far but enjoying them and will keep trying to improve to hopefully one day win one [emoji3]
 
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fundiver199

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I think, these CC freerolls are great for people starting out with a small bankroll. If you play them every day, you will be adding around 18$ a month to your bankroll. Which is pretty nice, if you started with for instance 100$, as I originally did. I don’t play them every day, because the starting time is a little late for me, and I am also somewhat past the level, where 50c of free money really matter to me. But when I do play, I typically fire up some multi table SnGs as well, so that I am not spending my time only on playing the freeroll.
 
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I think, these CC freerolls are great for people starting out with a small bankroll. If you play them every day, you will be adding around 18$ a month to your bankroll. Which is pretty nice, if you started with for instance 100$, as I originally did. I don’t play them every day, because the starting time is a little late for me, and I am also somewhat past the level, where 50c of free money really matter to me. But when I do play, I typically fire up some multi table SnGs as well, so that I am not spending my time only on playing the freeroll.
Totally agree, great competitive games that give micro players like myself a chance at boosting their roll.

I cant play everyday due other commitments like taking the kids to their martial arts / football training 2-3 nights a week. So only get 3 or 4 in a week unfortunately.
 
Joe

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You could certainly argue both, but the 3bb bet is a better play here than open shove IMO, you just got unlucky.

I'd be surprised if anyone said they didn't want 94o to reshove their standard open with AA.. Everything has played out here exactly as I'd hope it would if I was playing the hand, right up until the flop.

Just look at the equity in the hand history.. 87% pre, dropping to 31% on the flop, says it all...

Unlucky Ian!

Enjoyed being tabled with you earlier in the game, look forward to seeing you at the felt next time!

Oh, btw, what martial arts do your kids study? Such a beneficial pursuit!
 
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You could certainly argue both, but the 3bb bet is a better play here than open shove IMO, you just got unlucky.

I'd be surprised if anyone said they didn't want 94o to reshove their standard open with AA.. Everything has played out here exactly as I'd hope it would if I was playing the hand, right up until the flop.

Just look at the equity in the hand history.. 87% pre, dropping to 31% on the flop, says it all...

Unlucky Ian!

Enjoyed being tabled with you earlier in the game, look forward to seeing you at the felt next time!

Oh, btw, what martial arts do your kids study? Such a beneficial pursuit!
Hi mate.

Great sharing the table with you last night too, dont know if you saw but I had AA cracked on that table too just not my night lol.

I have training in kickboxing and taekwondo (ITF style not the Olympic one which is WTF) for 20years now currently 3rd dan black belt.

My oldest 2 are turning 9 in March and about 3 belts away from their black belt grading and my youngest is on her yellow belt.

Really does help with their discipline and confidence we have even noticed improvements in their school work as a result.
 
Bozovicdj

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If you play them every day, you will be adding around 18$ a month to your bankroll.


It sounds a lot like we should be min cashing every day at least (0.6$ * 30days = 18$). There is no way that is ever happening.
Online pros are ITM about 20% of the time, some of those late finishes, most are min cashes, but for most amateurs like those playing CC Freeroll, that percentage is almost unachievable.

Creating bankroll from freerolls is extremely difficult. It is a long process which is advised for beginners, solely because it's beneficial for them to play a lot of hands!
 
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fundiver199

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It sounds a lot like we should be min cashing every day at least (0.6$ * 30days = 18$). There is no way that is ever happening.
Online pros are ITM about 20% of the time, some of those late finishes, most are min cashes, but for most amateurs like those playing CC Freeroll, that percentage is almost unachievable.


Creating bankroll from freerolls is extremely difficult. It is a long process which is advised for beginners, solely because it's beneficial for them to play a lot of hands!

The daily 100$ CC freeroll see around 200 players, which mean the pricepool is 50c per player. It runs 6 times per week, so if you play them all, that is a value of 3$ per week. On Saturdays the price pool is 300$, and with still 200 people playing that is another 1,5$ value per week. 4,5$ per week is around 18$ per month. So this is just assuming, you run average. Of course you are not going to win 18$ every month. Some month it will be more, and others less. Which is also the case with all other tournaments.
 
moulan7

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Lol these guys in the freerolls.
No was not your mistake of course.
Either you open raise or shove it's both fine here. And of course shove in case someone has opened in front of you.
And here actually your raise was pretty good since the crazy guy went allin. You want such things to happen when you hold a monster.. but then again rip.
 
moulan7

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Btw in the hand analysis says that you raised to 600 not to 900 and blinds are 150/300.
So your raise was 2x and no 3x. Am I reading something wrong?
 
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IanP304

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Btw in the hand analysis says that you raised to 600 not to 900 and blinds are 150/300.
So your raise was 2x and no 3x. Am I reading something wrong?
No your not reading wrong, was a typo in my OP the raise was a 2x raise.
 
moulan7

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Don't be skeptical about your play, these things happen only in freerols xD.
I mean, who shoves 94o from bb to a MP opener, cmon xD .

I was playing yesterday too.
Utg+1 limps (60bb stack).
My holding AKs (35bb stack), I raise 3.1x (my standard 2.1 plus his 1bb limp).
He shoves! jeez xD.
Of course I snap call, he shows AJo, I lost, gg.
No analysis here, just crazy plays from guys who play just for fun (I mean they don't care/think/know about strats/plans/no thinking)
 
Joe

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Hi mate.

Great sharing the table with you last night too, dont know if you saw but I had AA cracked on that table too just not my night lol.

I have training in kickboxing and taekwondo (ITF style not the Olympic one which is WTF) for 20years now currently 3rd dan black belt.

My oldest 2 are turning 9 in March and about 3 belts away from their black belt grading and my youngest is on her yellow belt.

Really does help with their discipline and confidence we have even noticed improvements in their school work as a result.

Recollect a whole clutch of run bad on that table! It was cursed! Haha..

That's awesome, yes I think martial arts are great and pervasively-beneficial throughout all walks of life.

Maybe we get tabled again if your are playing this evening... :)
 
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Recollect a whole clutch of run bad on that table! It was cursed! Haha..

That's awesome, yes I think martial arts are great and pervasively-beneficial throughout all walks of life.

Maybe we get tabled again if your are playing this evening... :)
I was playing tonight but out already, not getting the cards tonight. Ending up getting it in with 13bb with JQs ran into 44 no improvement on flop, turn or river. Onto the next one [emoji1]

Hopefully see you on the tables again soon.
 
Joe

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I was playing tonight but out already, not getting the cards tonight. Ending up getting it in with 13bb with JQs ran into 44 no improvement on flop, turn or river. Onto the next one [emoji1]

Hopefully see you on the tables again soon.


Similar story here pal, yeah will cross paths sooner or later I'm sure!

Any plans to go to LL3 in London in April?
 
TheDude6622

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This is something where, yes, the results of this hand didn't go in your favor. In actuality, you got your opponent to shove pre-flop when you have the absolute best hand. Calling the all-in makes the most sense, especially if we're playing to win and not to just cash.
 
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Similar story here pal, yeah will cross paths sooner or later I'm sure!

Any plans to go to LL3 in London in April?
Honestly dont know what LL3 is lol. What is it, maybe I can be tempted as my birthday is end April.
 
Joe

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Honestly dont know what LL3 is lol. What is it, maybe I can be tempted as my birthday is end April.


Lex Live poker event running for ten days is Aspers casino, London.

Lots of twitch community there and the suchlike.

Want to go myself, if I can find a friend to put me up lol.
 
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This hand was my exit hand in last nights $100 PS CC freeroll, close to the bubble. Did I make a mistake by not open jamming, as if I had surely the 94o would have folded? Or was this the correct play and just unlucky?

Thanks
Ian


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (25 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

greatgame230 (UTG): 5,595 (19 bb)
ricsi1987 (UTG+1): 8,665 (29 bb)
fernandovr (MP): 8,508 (28 bb)
IanP84 (MP+1): 4,631 (15 bb)
Aa1234Bb (CO): 4,754 (16 bb)
dibu103 (BU): 6,104 (20 bb)
Risto515 (SB): 9,670 (32 bb)
ToNy70929 (BB): 15,306 (51 bb)

Pre-Flop: (650) Hero (IanP84) is MP+1 with A[emoji815] A[emoji812]
3 players fold, IanP84 (MP+1) raises to 600, 3 players fold, ToNy70929 (BB) 3-bets to 15,281 (all-in), IanP84 (MP+1) calls 4,006 (all-in)

Flop: (9,562) 5[emoji812] 9[emoji815] 4[emoji812] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (9,562) 8[emoji814] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (9,562) 2[emoji814] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 9,562

Showdown:
ToNy70929 (BB) shows 9[emoji814] 4[emoji813] (two pair, Nines and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 69%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

IanP84 (MP+1) shows A[emoji815] A[emoji812] (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 31%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

ToNy70929 (BB) wins 9,562
You didn't do anything wrong really. You obviously played super tight which put you in a bad spot being short stacked.

At this point your stack is a push /fold stack. You should of Jammed 1st chance you got.

This is a perfect example of aces not being. unbeatable. Many people call RIGGED when their aces lose. Its not. Your hand just hit that 20% of the time they lose.

Next time Jam. Raising does nothing at this point with 15 bb. You would be all in anyways . Of you were hoping to slow play and get multiple callers with AA that's how they most of the time get busted.

There is always a next time. Loosen up some. Having 15 BB and waiting on only the top hands is a good way to find yourself in a position like this.


Time to get more aggressive.
 
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You didn't do anything wrong really. You obviously played super tight which put you in a bad spot being short stacked.

At this point your stack is a push /fold stack. You should of Jammed 1st chance you got.

This is a perfect example of aces not being. unbeatable. Many people call RIGGED when their aces lose. Its not. Your hand just hit that 20% of the time they lose.

Next time Jam. Raising does nothing at this point with 15 bb. You would be all in anyways . Of you were hoping to slow play and get multiple callers with AA that's how they most of the time get busted.

There is always a next time. Loosen up some. Having 15 BB and waiting on only the top hands is a good way to find yourself in a position like this.


Time to get more aggressive.
Thanks for the advice. I agree I probably put my self in a tricky spot by playing to tight in the middle stages. Aggression is a part of my game I am studying and trying to improve currently, though I think I will always adopt the TAG style rather than a LAG style.
 
moulan7

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@Criplgamer

Why is it obvious that he played super tight?
Whatever you do you, you can end up being short stacked at some point.

With 15bb his only options is push or fold?
What to do if he holds JTs with 15bb and faces a 2.2x open from a 100bb button? Is it wrong to call?
Or if he holds JTs (always with 15bb) on the button and everyone folds to him? Is it wrong to make a 2-2.5 raise?
We are not all people play the same way. We have different thresholds for getting in the push or fold strategy.
The point is to make meaningful moves and take reasonable decisions.

In this hand he can't go wrong with either raising or shove.
His raise proved to be better because someone shoved, whereas his shove was not going to get called here. Plus it gives him credit for steals like the one I mentioned with JT from the button.

Also here he doesn't slow play. We can call it a slow play if he just calls an earlier raiser (which is wrong). He makes a standard raise. Of course he doesn't want many people to call but the same goes if he has 15bb or 100bb.
Maybe his intentions is to give room for a shove (like it happened) and respect and credit for later steals. So his play is meaningful.

Again, I'm saying that if we have a reason for what we do that makes sense, then we can go with that. There's no one right way to win in this game.
 
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