Busted with AA first hand, live tournament

cartelas · Jul 19, 2016

The very first hand of the live tournament(rebuy), so i had no read on the players.

10k Starting chips, blinds 25/50

Im in middle position and everyone folds to me.
I see my AA and raise to 175

I get one call from the button

Flop: 10 9 7 Rainbow

I check.
He bets 750.
I decided to re-raise 1500.
And he re-raise to 5k

Here i move all in and he snap calls with the straight 86s

Was i just unlucky or did i do anything wrong? Now when i think about it i should just call the flop.

ninoverm · Jul 20, 2016

Bit of a weird line you're taking by checking the flop, but nevertheless: once he reraises to 5K I think it's a crying fold. I think he would raise KK and QQ pre-flop, so the only thing he could be doing this with is J8 or 86. Start of the tournament, so there's enough time afterwards to get your stack back up.

Pablo24A · Jul 21, 2016

I think the most common mistake with aces is a weak preflop raise.

If blinds are 25/50 and you start with 10k I think 175 is a weak raise, only 3 bb and if you are in the bottom and have connected cards you should call. If you make a stronger bet like 10 bb you are securing small hands are not calling and if someone with a strong hand make a call, you know you have the advantage, even with that flop.

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 22, 2016

Preflop: your 3.5bb raise is totally fine. I disagree with whoever said that you should make bigger preflop bets with better hands.

Flop: The only reason to check the flop is for pot control. If you're pot controlling then you NEVER check raise. you could check/call flop (750) and check call the turn (probably about 1,000) and then re-evaluate on the river. Even if you decided to check/call it down all the way to the river (probably another 2,000 or 2,500 bet on river) the entire hand would have cost you about 4,000 to 4,500. less than half your stack. Now, I'm not saying you SHOULD call all the way to the river, I'm just saying it is a way better line than what you took.

Overall Impression:
I think you got mesmerized by your own 2 cards and forgot to think about the most important thing: what does my opponent have? In deepstacked poker it is much less important what 2 cards you are actually holding and more important to think about your opponent's range. you're 200 BBs deep so most hands are not going to get to a showdown, and if you're playing for stacks with 200bb it should usually be something like set vs. monster combo draw, or 2 pair vs. set.

Ask yourself, when you check raise the flop, what are you trying to accomplish? are you trying to get him to fold or call? if you're trying to get him to call....which hands that you are beating would actually call here? Do you think AT would call? do you think JJ would call? they might, but most good players will not get their stack in with those hands, and they certainly won't re-raise your check raise. If you're trying to get him to fold; do you think that 2 pair or better will fold? I definitely do NOT think 2 pair or better will fold. so are you trying to get a 1 pair hand to fold? well, you beat every single 1 pair hand so you shouldn't want them to fold.

Basically, your line on the flop ensures that you fold out worse hands and you get called by better hands. exact opposite of what we want.

el Jefe · Jul 25, 2016

missjacki said:
Preflop: your 3.5bb raise is totally fine. I disagree with whoever said that you should make bigger preflop bets with better hands.

Flop: The only reason to check the flop is for pot control. If you're pot controlling then you NEVER check raise. you could check/call flop (750) and check call the turn (probably about 1,000) and then re-evaluate on the river. Even if you decided to check/call it down all the way to the river (probably another 2,000 or 2,500 bet on river) the entire hand would have cost you about 4,000 to 4,500. less than half your stack. Now, I'm not saying you SHOULD call all the way to the river, I'm just saying it is a way better line than what you took.

Overall Impression:
I think you got mesmerized by your own 2 cards and forgot to think about the most important thing: what does my opponent have? In deepstacked poker it is much less important what 2 cards you are actually holding and more important to think about your opponent's range. you're 200 BBs deep so most hands are not going to get to a showdown, and if you're playing for stacks with 200bb it should usually be something like set vs. monster combo draw, or 2 pair vs. set.

Ask yourself, when you check raise the flop, what are you trying to accomplish? are you trying to get him to fold or call? if you're trying to get him to call....which hands that you are beating would actually call here? Do you think AT would call? do you think JJ would call? they might, but most good players will not get their stack in with those hands, and they certainly won't re-raise your check raise. If you're trying to get him to fold; do you think that 2 pair or better will fold? I definitely do NOT think 2 pair or better will fold. so are you trying to get a 1 pair hand to fold? well, you beat every single 1 pair hand so you shouldn't want them to fold.

Basically, your line on the flop ensures that you fold out worse hands and you get called by better hands. exact opposite of what we want.

Totally agree with Missjacki. The flop was absolutely horrible for you. It hits so much of the range of someone calling your raise. This is not a spot that you want to build the pot.

Nutcracker69 · Jul 25, 2016

Pablo24A said:
I think the most common mistake with aces is a weak preflop raise.

If blinds are 25/50 and you start with 10k I think 175 is a weak raise, only 3 bb and if you are in the bottom and have connected cards you should call. If you make a stronger bet like 10 bb you are securing small hands are not calling and if someone with a strong hand make a call, you know you have the advantage, even with that flop.

You want him to put in 5% of his starting stack on the first hand of the tournament preflop? So if he is smart enough to fold on the flop, he get to use this strategy and play less than 20 hands in the tournament?

My compliments to the chef. I might have to track down your other 11 posts to see what other nuggets I can find.

Nutcracker69 · Jul 25, 2016

missjacki said:
Preflop: your 3.5bb raise is totally fine. I disagree with whoever said that you should make bigger preflop bets with better hands.

Flop: The only reason to check the flop is for pot control. If you're pot controlling then you NEVER check raise. you could check/call flop (750) and check call the turn (probably about 1,000) and then re-evaluate on the river. Even if you decided to check/call it down all the way to the river (probably another 2,000 or 2,500 bet on river) the entire hand would have cost you about 4,000 to 4,500. less than half your stack. Now, I'm not saying you SHOULD call all the way to the river, I'm just saying it is a way better line than what you took.

Overall Impression:
I think you got mesmerized by your own 2 cards and forgot to think about the most important thing: what does my opponent have? In deepstacked poker it is much less important what 2 cards you are actually holding and more important to think about your opponent's range. you're 200 BBs deep so most hands are not going to get to a showdown, and if you're playing for stacks with 200bb it should usually be something like set vs. monster combo draw, or 2 pair vs. set.

Ask yourself, when you check raise the flop, what are you trying to accomplish? are you trying to get him to fold or call? if you're trying to get him to call....which hands that you are beating would actually call here? Do you think AT would call? do you think JJ would call? they might, but most good players will not get their stack in with those hands, and they certainly won't re-raise your check raise. If you're trying to get him to fold; do you think that 2 pair or better will fold? I definitely do NOT think 2 pair or better will fold. so are you trying to get a 1 pair hand to fold? well, you beat every single 1 pair hand so you shouldn't want them to fold.

Basically, your line on the flop ensures that you fold out worse hands and you get called by better hands. exact opposite of what we want.

lol

Why do you feel the need to insert logic, reasoning and solid play into this thread? It started off so beautifully. 1 guy (no offense) basically deserving to get stacked on his first hand with the best starting hand in poker based on his play and another guy saying his problem was not getting enough chips in the pot.

lol

:smile:

Nutcracker69 · Jul 25, 2016

el Jefe said:
Totally agree with Missjacki. The flop was absolutely horrible for you. It hits so much of the range of someone calling your raise. This is not a spot that you want to build the pot.

I mean, if he's playing me, I just stacked him first hand with my favorite hand 910!!

Dan Lucas · Jul 25, 2016

I think that I have seen previous posts that indicate his 5-bet of your check/raise on the flop was polarizing, and that he was saying he has a monster or he's bluffing. As the first hand in the tournament, unless you knew for sure he was a donk, the correct move is to fold on his re-raise. You have lots of time to play if you fold. I think your check-raise on the flop was a good move by asking him the question, but you weren't prepared to listen to the answer. Tough to fold AA, but there is a lot to be said about fleeing to fight another day.

Nutcracker69 · Jul 25, 2016

Dan Lucas said:
I think that I have seen previous posts that indicate his 5-bet of your check/raise on the flop was polarizing, and that he was saying he has a monster or he's bluffing. As the first hand in the tournament, unless you knew for sure he was a donk, the correct move is to fold on his re-raise. You have lots of time to play if you fold. I think your check-raise on the flop was a good move by asking him the question, but you weren't prepared to listen to the answer. Tough to fold AA, but there is a lot to be said about fleeing to fight another day.

There aren't enough fish in the see to 3 bet this flop with, say, A10. He has you beat, or at least in his head assumes he has the best hand. Do you really want to risk your entire tournament and stack on the first hand playing psychologist of whether his belief of best hand is true or not?

Not me.

In fact, if, for some reason (pot control possibly) I have checked this flop, and he bets what he does, I would argue that the PRO optimum strategy is to eject right then. Who in their right mind faces a bet such as yours preflop followed by a check that decides to lead out the way he does on this board? No one that you're crushing, that's for sure. You can get lucky and be ahead, but what are you really hoping to be against when you check/raise JJ QQ KK? Very few players would've taken that line with you with that holding for 2 reasons:
1) They would have tested you preflop with a 3 bet, even if smaller sized.
2) If they thought they were trapping preflop and had the edge, they hate this flop as much as you do. They're more likely to check it back for pot control than they are to put out a feeler bet.

All that being said, you got the information you were apparently looking for, as he said, but you refused to listen. IF you perceive his first best as a "feeler bet" his 3 bet of your check/raise PROVES it is not. There are three possibiities here:

1) You're dead.
2) He THINKS he is ahead and wants to play for stacks and you have to navigate that mindfield.
3) He THINKS you're weak and he can blow you off the hand.

IMHO, #3 is much more of a later-stage strategy, not usually reserved for THE FIRST HAND OF A TOURNAMENT. So you really only have two options. Either you're dead or he thinks you are. I can find a better spot to pick up chips than that. You should be able to, too.

AtiFCOD · Jul 26, 2016

cartelas said:
The very first hand of the live tournament(rebuy), so i had no read on the players.

10k Starting chips, blinds 25/50

Im in middle position and everyone folds to me.
I see my AA and raise to 175

I get one call from the button

Flop: 10 9 7 Rainbow

I check.
He bets 750.
I decided to re-raise 1500.
And he re-raise to 5k

Here i move all in and he snap calls with the straight 86s

Was i just unlucky or did i do anything wrong? Now when i think about it i should just call the flop.

You did well preflop. But after he reraised 5K, it's a fold. He could have pair of 10s or 9s easily, especially so deep. Moreover some players like calling preflop raises with trash so early in the tourney...

antbison · Jul 28, 2016

Aces

cartelas said:
The very first hand of the live tournament(rebuy), so i had no read on the players.

10k Starting chips, blinds 25/50

Im in middle position and everyone folds to me.
I see my AA and raise to 175

I get one call from the button aces are rhe best hand pre flop after the flop is a different story

Flop: 10 9 7 Rainbow

I check.
He bets 750.
I decided to re-raise 1500.
And he re-raise to 5k

Here i move all in and he snap calls with the straight 86s

Was i just unlucky or did i do anything wrong? Now when i think about it i should just call the flop.

aces are best pre flop after the flop new ballgame

mbrenneman0 · Jul 28, 2016

cartelas said:
The very first hand of the live tournament(rebuy), so i had no read on the players.

10k Starting chips, blinds 25/50

Im in middle position and everyone folds to me.
I see my AA and raise to 175

I get one call from the button

Flop: 10 9 7 Rainbow

I check.
He bets 750.
I decided to re-raise 1500.
And he re-raise to 5k

Here i move all in and he snap calls with the straight 86s

Was i just unlucky or did i do anything wrong? Now when i think about it i should just call the flop.

Yes you did something wrong. You didn't think about what your opponent had. AA is a good hand belut when cards start to come out it might not be a good hand anymore. You should have bet the flop. When you check to your opponent, you lose your advantage and you don't know where youre at any more. If you bet, and he raises, you know he's strong and you can put the breaks on. If you bet and he flat calls, you can reevaluate as the cards come out and usually bet the turn or the river, but I wouldn't triple barrel here in the chance of him slow playing.

Yes, this result is unlikely, but you have to think about survival in a tournament like this.

joe777 · Aug 13, 2016

Observe villain bet sizing because you could also add pockets 10s and 9s to his range that could probably form a set.Unlucky hand tho.

Bodomovac · Aug 13, 2016

I don't agree with the most who say that the raise was good. Pre-flop with pocket aces you should have raised more IMO. But also when you got re-raised on the flop you should have stopped and thinked for a few seconds or minute it was obvious that he had something great.

Gh0stL · Aug 13, 2016

For me when I have AA Usally play All-in, but when in your case in table is posible project to straight he bets I need take a desition depend the villian play.

ninoverm · Aug 14, 2016

Bodomovac said:
I don't agree with the most who say that the raise was good. Pre-flop with pocket aces you should have raised more IMO. But also when you got re-raised on the flop you should have stopped and thinked for a few seconds or minute it was obvious that he had something great.

What's wrong with a 3.5 BB raise? That's even at the higher side of things.

gustavo2104 · Aug 18, 2016

A hand very difficult to play, When he re-raise to 5k, You should think that he had something more than a simple pair. Even so, it is not a easy fold

Tomioto3095 · Aug 18, 2016

I think you didn't play very well this hand.. You check the flop.. then probably you didn't see the cards in the board.. because you have to see and analyse the situation.. i think you have some mistakes

demacedo6 · Sep 1, 2016

Preflop you played well, but postflop you played bad imo. I think better make a continuation bet on the flop to protect our hand. As played I fold after the villain's raise to 5k.

Skatoosh · Sep 5, 2016

That 5K re-raise would have sent me running. Here's why:

There wasn't much action preflop, he only called you'r 3x meaning he could easily be limping. First red flag.

You checked, I would too.
He bet 750, I would have called.
He reraised 5000 after your 1500 bet. He is obviously strong and hopes you call with your strong starting hand, which you did.

You didint read his 5000 raise correctly and it cost you the your tournament life.

rule72 · Sep 13, 2016

Preflop I believe open raise should be a little higher at the first couple levels. I'm assuming here this is like maybe a $100 tourney or less therefore lots of gambling by inexperienced players early.

At first two levels I'm open raising 4-6 bb with any hand that can raise, that is hand strength has nothing to do raise sizing. And my selected open raise size is the same throughout that level. In my live tourneys ($50 to $125 buy-in) I still occasionally get 2-4 callers with that raise so I want to be paid preflop for the best hand to make up for when I miss the flop. By late tourney my raise size is down to 2 to 2.5 bb for an open raise depending on circumstances.

Any over pair, including AA, is only one pair when you miss the flop. Need to study "reverse implied odds".

Lots of good suggestions already given for post flop play.

Jim Brown · Sep 14, 2016

preflop is perfectly fine. checking the flop is weird, check raising this board with an overpair is crazy, and once he 3bets you have to let it go after starting 200bb deep

Busted with AA first hand, live tournament

cartelas

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ninoverm

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Pablo24A

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Jacki Burkhart

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