$600 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Bluff Catch early in Planet Hollywood "Goliath" tourney?

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 10, 2016

$600 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Bluff Catch early in Planet Hollywood "Goliath" tourney?

This is the first hand I've played at this table, but I've been at the table about 10 mins (I registered about 30 mins late).

starting stacks are 20,000 and blinds are 50/100. I've folded my blinds so I have 19,850.

Anyways villain is the BB this hand and he is clearly an action junkie. in 10 minutes he's played like 4 hands and he's been all in by the river in 2 of them (getting his opponent to fold) and he's just playing huge pots for no good reason and talking about how "$600 is nothing to me. I need to build a stack fast or rebuy". Some players say this kind of thing as advertising but don't really mean it....but I can absolutely tell by the way this guy is playing that he means it. He will either hand somebody his stack, or double up in the next hour for sure. probably much sooner.

OK. Here is the hand:
MP limps for 100. it folds to my button and I have

so I limp along. SB completes and BB checks.

Pot contains 400

Flop comes

all 3 players check to me. I've completely missed the flop and my hand has almost no value. usually I just check back in these spots but I decide to fire and try to either take it down, or play a HU pot in position and navigate as I go. so I bet 300 and both the SB and BB call. MP folds.

Pot contains 1,300 going to the turn. 3 handed. turn is the

now, that's a good card for me, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand now. I've decided to check it back and let the crazy BB bluff the river but once the SB checks the BB bets out 2,700 (2x the pot). That is mildly annoying since I'm not trying to play a huge pot with 1 pair....but this guy is a joker and I feel he's most likely got nothing although it's possible he has a diamond draw. I decide to call his turn bet and my plan is to call ANY river bet he makes unless diamonds hit.

I'm somewhat surprised when the SB also calls. He seems tight and straightforward. I don't worry about him too much, but I decide with the way the hand is going now the SB is the most likely one to have diamonds meaning it's even MORE likely that the BB has nothing. I realize in the back of my mind that sometimes the BB can have a monster here like a set and he's just using his image to build a big pot. but he's so crazy I'm just going to have to pay him off if that's the case.

Pot contains 9,400 going to the river and the river is the

. I think that's a pretty good card unless somebody has exactly KJ then the board hasn't really changed much. If I was ahead before I'm still ahead.

SB checks and the crazy BB goes all in for 12,800 (overbets the pot). His mannerisms are ripe with tells of weakness. I just KNOW I have this guy beat. (I'm pretty confident in my live reads, just trust me that I'm no longer worried he has any kind of a monster). I cover both players. The SB has about 12,000 behind and I have about 17,000 behind. I decide it's safer to reship than to flat just in case the SB has a bigger ace than me such as AT or A9 he will probably fold it. So, I do quickly and confidently re-ship.

but.......the SB goes into the tank. uh-oh. what have I stepped in?

what do we think of this hand so far? This is quite opposite of the way I usually approach the early stages of a deep stacked tourney but the wild card just sweetened the pot too much...

WiZZiM · Jul 11, 2016

i'd be super worried about the SB overcalling the turn, it's not like he just called a normal bet here he calls a 2x pot bet and you called also. For that reason i'm really torn on this river. id be more worried about him than the BB who i would snap call on this river if i was completing the action.

long story short i have no real clue what to do on this river we don't really have many good options imo but i'm leaning towards shoving and hoping that the SB will be able to fold a AJ type hand.

JPainTrainSicko · Jul 11, 2016

All the action to this point seems reasonable given the description you gave for the opponent's tendencies. After the overcall of the turn by the small blind I have to put him on a pretty strong hand or a big draw. If he is the type of player who can make a big laydown I like the reshove on your part. If he is likely to think in absolute hand strength and not relative to the action I may just let this go and wait for another spot.
Not being at the table long and not having a lot of tendency observations makes this a hard decision tho...
Thinking about what the SB has I'm really leaning toward like Ad3d. It really makes sense for the player profile and actions you've told. Also I guess certain players like this might have a small set of 2's or 3's and be nervous of straights and better sets. But given the preflop and flop action I think anyone having the bigger sets would be rare, and that's why I'm leaning toward the two pair with nuts draw. I also think with the small sets most times this player would reraise the turn but that like anything is very player specific and this may not be that type of opponent.

tagece · Jul 11, 2016

I would fold. Looks like the SB had something like a set or A3. The aggro was not really a problem, although I never had much luck calling these kind of players...

PokerFunKid · Jul 11, 2016

I would be prety sure you have the big blind too and go with my read if the small blind didn't call. But once the small blind overcalls the 2x pot bet on the turn i'm done with this hand. He reps a very strong hand and i'd be very worried about him having you beat. Even folding on A, or 8 rivers. Can't just put him on a flushdraw too. His range is much wider and can contain monsters like sets, 45 and 2-pairs. But i think the small blinds is much stronger then 2-pair.

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 11, 2016

PokerFunKid said:
I would be prety sure you have the big blind too and go with my read if the small blind didn't call. But once the small blind overcalls the 2x pot bet on the turn i'm done with this hand. He reps a very strong hand and i'd be very worried about him having you beat. Even folding on A, or 8 rivers. Can't just put him on a flushdraw too. His range is much wider and can contain monsters like sets, 45 and 2-pairs. But i think the small blinds is much stronger then 2-pair.

yes, in retrospect as soon as the SB started tanking I realized that his range was SUPER strong. I was so focused on the BB that I made a fundamental error in underestimating my opponent (the SB).

Of course, by now I was already all in (not at risk but still....most my chips). so I figured it was a freeroll for me to just look as strong as possible and hope he can fold 2 pair. I was just hoping he had something like KJ/A3 and would find a fold.

Then he tells me he has a set and that he can't believe he is considering folding it....starts scolding himself for slowplaying. The BB puts on his backpack and says "Oh man. You got a set? What are you waiting for. You know you're gonna call."

SB tanks for like 4 more minutes (literally) then folds 22 face up! bottom set. As he folds he says the only hand it makes sense for me to have is a set of 3s or the wheel.

anyways....I was correct about the BB. He had Q7o for nothing no draw. I scooped a huge pot with very meager holdings. Woops.

This is not a brag thread....I seriously think I misplayed the hand and then got lucky by overplaying it and making it look stronger than it was.

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 11, 2016

This is something I've been working on in my game. I tend to be really good at sniffing out bluffs but I have a leak in that I frequently just call instead of re-raising. Usually it doesn't matter, but there have been a few notable times lately where I was correct that they were bluffing and I just called and then later realized if I had raised the hand I would have scooped the pot (instead of chopping or losing to a bluff that notched me) or would have still won but wouldn't have had to show my hand down (which can sometimes be valuable).

So....I was trying consciously to work on this and it accidentally won me a pot I didn't deserve.

WiZZiM · Jul 13, 2016

missjacki said:
won me a pot I didn't deserve.

Those are the best kind

duggs · Jul 13, 2016

missjacki said:
This is the first hand I've played at this table, but I've been at the table about 10 mins (I registered about 30 mins late).

starting stacks are 20,000 and blinds are 50/100. I've folded my blinds so I have 19,850.

Anyways villain is the BB this hand and he is clearly an action junkie. in 10 minutes he's played like 4 hands and he's been all in by the river in 2 of them (getting his opponent to fold) and he's just playing huge pots for no good reason and talking about how "$600 is nothing to me. I need to build a stack fast or rebuy". Some players say this kind of thing as advertising but don't really mean it....but I can absolutely tell by the way this guy is playing that he means it. He will either hand somebody his stack, or double up in the next hour for sure. probably much sooner.

OK. Here is the hand:
MP limps for 100. it folds to my button and I have so I limp along. SB completes and BB checks.

Pot contains 400

Flop comes

all 3 players check to me. I've completely missed the flop and my hand has almost no value. usually I just check back in these spots but I decide to fire and try to either take it down, or play a HU pot in position and navigate as I go. so I bet 300 and both the SB and BB call. MP folds.

Pot contains 1,300 going to the turn. 3 handed. turn is the

now, that's a good card for me, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand now. I've decided to check it back and let the crazy BB bluff the river but once the SB checks the BB bets out 2,700 (2x the pot). That is mildly annoying since I'm not trying to play a huge pot with 1 pair....but this guy is a joker and I feel he's most likely got nothing although it's possible he has a diamond draw. I decide to call his turn bet and my plan is to call ANY river bet he makes unless diamonds hit.

I'm somewhat surprised when the SB also calls. He seems tight and straightforward. I don't worry about him too much, but I decide with the way the hand is going now the SB is the most likely one to have diamonds meaning it's even MORE likely that the BB has nothing. I realize in the back of my mind that sometimes the BB can have a monster here like a set and he's just using his image to build a big pot. but he's so crazy I'm just going to have to pay him off if that's the case.

Pot contains 9,400 going to the river and the river is the . I think that's a pretty good card unless somebody has exactly KJ then the board hasn't really changed much. If I was ahead before I'm still ahead.

SB checks and the crazy BB goes all in for 12,800 (overbets the pot). His mannerisms are ripe with tells of weakness. I just KNOW I have this guy beat. (I'm pretty confident in my live reads, just trust me that I'm no longer worried he has any kind of a monster). I cover both players. The SB has about 12,000 behind and I have about 17,000 behind. I decide it's safer to reship than to flat just in case the SB has a bigger ace than me such as AT or A9 he will probably fold it. So, I do quickly and confidently re-ship.

but.......the SB goes into the tank. uh-oh. what have I stepped in?

what do we think of this hand so far? This is quite opposite of the way I usually approach the early stages of a deep stacked tourney but the wild card just sweetened the pot too much...

Havent read the other posts yet, But ill go through the hand street by street.

Pre looks ok, we are 200bb eff, but id also be pretty happy with a raise, how are we playing if the BB or SB raise here? if we are going for a limp/call im not super sure its going to play that well. and that dead money looks pretty enticing.

Flop looks good, could probably go 250ish if we wanted but looks fine.

Turn is pretty puke, there is going to be A2/A3 from the BB, including 45 and some other random two pairs. removing AJ from both given preflop. but the problem is we are also somewhat capped, we never have a better A than A8s/A9s here. Im fine with the call given reads, but I would be looking for fold rivers without some physical information (im trusting both your reads and your ability to get future reads here). You mentioned he took some pots down earlier, but did it include overbetting? Calling looks fine, I expect us to be in realllllly poor shape once the SB calls tho.

River, im snap folding to any action. Even for a maniac, overbetting twice into 2 opponents in a limped pot is insane. He can have plenty of nutted hands AND we have to contend with the SB.

duggs · Jul 13, 2016

missjacki said:
This is something I've been working on in my game. I tend to be really good at sniffing out bluffs but I have a leak in that I frequently just call instead of re-raising. Usually it doesn't matter, but there have been a few notable times lately where I was correct that they were bluffing and I just called and then later realized if I had raised the hand I would have scooped the pot (instead of chopping or losing to a bluff that notched me) or would have still won but wouldn't have had to show my hand down (which can sometimes be valuable).

So....I was trying consciously to work on this and it accidentally won me a pot I didn't deserve.

Sorry I dont quite get this? river Our call or raise makes no difference right? first bet is 12800, we have 17000 behind and SB has 12000, whether we call or fold changes nothing?

Its actually much better to call bluffs with bluff catchers instead of raising them. I can run a basic calc for you if it illuminates things for you.

P=pot size, B=bet size

I bet B on the river (or any street, but for simplicity). I am bluffing X%.

So if i bet, and you call your EV= -(1-X)*B+X(P+B)
If i bet and you fold then your EV=0

Lets just assume EVcall>EVfold and compare calling with raising.

So EVcall= -(1-X)*B+X(P+B) which basically says when I am bluffing you win my bet and the pot, but when I have a hand you lose your additional bet (relative to folding)

So EV raise (assuming you raise to R, lets also assume he folds his bluffs if you raise but calls with his value hands, seem reasonable I think)
EVraise= -(1-X)(B+R)+X(P+B)

EVraise>EVcall iff -(1-X)(B+R)+X(P+B) > -(1-X)*B+X(P+B)

-(B+R) > -B
R<0
Which since R is always a positive amount, makes this impossible under these assumptions.

A simple concept to apply to it is what are we trying to achieve with raising, If he is perfectly polarised, raising only puts in additional money against his nutted hands, since we win the pot when he is bluffing anyway.

duggs · Jul 13, 2016

As a side note I think SB played this hand pretty poorly on the river, it seems like a snap call from his seat, even if your range we tighter its still far too strong a hand to fold here.

ribbybruno · Jul 13, 2016

duggs said:
As a side note I think SB played this hand pretty poorly on the river, it seems like a snap call from his seat, even if your range we tighter its still far too strong a hand to fold here.

SB folding here with a set is very surprising to me. Over betting a pot shows weakness imo by the maniac BB. Everyone limped in before the flop so the only reason I can think of why SB folded was Jackie maybe having 4 5 for a wheel which crushes the set. I am still going to call with a set to have a chance to triple up or move on to the next tournament.

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 13, 2016

duggs said:
Sorry I dont quite get this? river Our call or raise makes no difference right? first bet is 12800, we have 17000 behind and SB has 12000, whether we call or fold changes nothing?

Its actually much better to call bluffs with bluff catchers instead of raising them. I can run a basic calc for you if it illuminates things for you.

P=pot size, B=bet size

I bet B on the river (or any street, but for simplicity). I am bluffing X%.

So if i bet, and you call your EV= -(1-X)*B+X(P+B)
If i bet and you fold then your EV=0

Lets just assume EVcall>EVfold and compare calling with raising.

So EVcall= -(1-X)*B+X(P+B) which basically says when I am bluffing you win my bet and the pot, but when I have a hand you lose your additional bet (relative to folding)

So EV raise (assuming you raise to R, lets also assume he folds his bluffs if you raise but calls with his value hands, seem reasonable I think)
EVraise= -(1-X)(B+R)+X(P+B)

EVraise>EVcall iff -(1-X)(B+R)+X(P+B) > -(1-X)*B+X(P+B)

-(B+R) > -B
R<0
Which since R is always a positive amount, makes this impossible under these assumptions.

A simple concept to apply to it is what are we trying to achieve with raising, If he is perfectly polarised, raising only puts in additional money against his nutted hands, since we win the pot when he is bluffing anyway.

I agree in a polarized river situation when I have s showdownable hand calling is just fine, and that's usually what I do.

My only point in adding that blurb about raising was there are other river spots where it's better to raise when I think he is bluffing, and ive been missing those spots. So...in this hand I applied that "leak fix" but I applied it in the wrong way, in the wrong type of spot.

But, I DO think it changed the outcome of the hand. Although o the surface it seems like it changes the math very little...I believe it strengthened my range in the eyes of the SB. Again....woops!

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 13, 2016

Oh and I must have reported their stacks slightly wrong because the SB had the BB covered by just a little. Maybe like 1,500 or so.

duggs · Jul 13, 2016

missjacki said:
I agree in a polarized river situation when I have s showdownable hand calling is just fine, and that's usually what I do.

My only point in adding that blurb about raising was there are other river spots where it's better to raise when I think he is bluffing, and ive been missing those spots. So...in this hand I applied that "leak fix" but I applied it in the wrong way, in the wrong type of spot.

But, I DO think it changed the outcome of the hand. Although o the surface it seems like it changes the math very little...I believe it strengthened my range in the eyes of the SB. Again....woops!

But why is it better to raise when you think he is bluffing? Its not the bluffer we are concerned about, its the guy behind us. I honestly think he folds either way, but yea shoving seems trivial with this SPR

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 13, 2016

duggs said:
But why is it better to raise when you think he is bluffing? Its not the bluffer we are concerned about, its the guy behind us. I honestly think he folds either way, but yea shoving seems trivial with this SPR

In THIS hand it is not better to raise the bluffer. I screwed up a few things in this hand but mostly I screwed up the river.

I'm talking about in other spots in poker in general...namely heads up spots where their range is more merged or you think they might be thin value betting some of the time and bluffing a lot of the time...then raising is better.

Or if you're pretty sure he's bluffing, but you can't beat all the bluffs In his range. Ex: You might be seriously considering calling down with A high cuz you're so sure he's bluffing then be sad to discover he turned 22 into a bluff...if stacks allow; it's better to click it back than to just call. Also acts as "insurance" for the times you're just wrong but your raise causes him to lay down the better hand.

Not useful in a highly polarized "nuts or nothing" spot. But useful in other spots.

duggs · Jul 13, 2016

missjacki said:
In THIS hand it is not better to raise the bluffer. I screwed up a few things in this hand but mostly I screwed up the river.

I'm talking about in other spots in poker in general...namely heads up spots where their range is more merged or you think they might be thin value betting some of the time and bluffing a lot of the time...then raising is better.

Or if you're pretty sure he's bluffing, but you can't beat all the bluffs In his range. Ex: You might be seriously considering calling down with A high cuz you're so sure he's bluffing then be sad to discover he turned 22 into a bluff...if stacks allow; it's better to click it back than to just call. Also acts as "insurance" for the times you're just wrong but your raise causes him to lay down the better hand.

Not useful in a highly polarized "nuts or nothing" spot. But useful in other spots.

oh im definitely down for ambitious river raises

Jacki Burkhart · Jul 13, 2016

duggs said:
oh im definitely down for ambitious river raises

Yeah I guess that's all I was doing; I was calling out an error in my thought process. I was in this mindset where I knew I wasn't making these "ambitious river raises" enough. So I made one in a dumb spot.

Kinda like I got a pretty new hammer and now all of a sudden everything looks like a nail...

Nutcracker69 · Jul 13, 2016

Why do I only find these threads after the answer has been given? I was going to guess 22, but I also (wrongly) assumed that after a long tank he crippled you with a "crying call" indicating that he had basically just a "bluff catcher."

I guess if he thought his tourney was on the line (no reentry) that he could find a fold. But his overcall on the turn is not a high value play MOST of the time. Since we were kids we were told not to "throw good money after bad" and maybe that's what he thought he'd be doing with a call on the river...

But I just don't get it. Personally, I've folded TOP set on a super coordinated board when I closed out the action and would have to TID 3 way. But circumstances were signficantly different for me. For him, is he calling looking for the case 2? Is he worried he's up against the wheel on the turn and looking for a paired up river? It just stands to reason that a call on the turn would lead to a call on the river most of the time in this situation. He can rule out the BB, especially when, IMO the BB talks against the rules and gives too much away for a multi-way pot. Normally I'd say if he was going to call the river versus you what is he worried about you picking up (assuming he thinks he is ahead) and therefore he should raise the turn and either TID or get value (if the player wasn't as good as you)...
But NOT in this case, he wants the BB to shove with garbage and he got that. If you overcall the turn, you overcall the river too. The river changed nothing, as you indicated. I'd assume if he had another 600 ready to go he'd be right in there a lot sooner. Must not have been the case.

Would love to hear his reasoning behind how he played the WHOLE hand. Anyway, nice scoop though!

JPainTrainSicko · Jul 14, 2016

From what I gather of the small blinds actions and his comments he called on the turn thinking he was trapping and ahead. But after further action on the river of the shove and reshove he second guessed himself. Ran thru what hands made sense and thought like he said, it must be 33. Which wasn't impossible given the situation I don't think.

But this sounds like that certain type of player who always thinks the other player has one better than them. You know the type, you've seen them at the table. They have a solid hand for the situation but all they can see is what beats them and then they play scared. Just an assumption on my part but either way IMO this sb got more info on the river and reassessed/doubted their initial read.

$600 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Bluff Catch early in Planet Hollywood "Goliath" tourney?

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

WiZZiM

Legend

JPainTrainSicko

Rock Star

tagece

Legend

PokerFunKid

Legend

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

WiZZiM

Legend

duggs

Killing me softly

duggs

Killing me softly

duggs

Killing me softly

ribbybruno

Skadoosh!!

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

duggs

Killing me softly

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

duggs

Killing me softly

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...

Nutcracker69

Visionary

JPainTrainSicko

Rock Star

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