$6.60 NLHE MTT Turbo: KQs Limp or Squeeze?

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Minikiwi9

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Last level of Late Reg about 15-20 from the money. I only have this table of stats on both V's opener is 22/17 of 36 hands and limp caller is 44/6 with 34 hands..

I think both limping and squeezing are +EV and understanding your table will really sway your decision. Though after going back and reviewing the tourney, I feel like a squeeze to 18000-20000 may be ideal, calling off any shove from BB or UTG. Interesting spot for sure.

I think it is a pretty clear fold on the flop afterwards but maybe I'm missing something?

Thoughts would be appreciated, I plan on posting in here more often.:cool:
 
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fundiver199

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This was not a limp, it was a min-raise from UTG. Which is pretty normal, when stacks are this short. I dont like 3-betting here. Any 3-bet is an effective jam against both players, and it also put a lot of chips at risk against all the players, which are left to act behind.

KQs is a good hand, but its not great against either an UTG open range at a 8-handed table or the range, that call next to act. So I actually think, the best play here is to just get out of the way.

Yes its tight, but positions matter. Its way different, if HJ min-open, CO call, and now the action is on you on BTN. Then its 100% mandatory to continue with KQs, but in this situation I would just hate my life and let it go.
 
Jon Poker

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This was not a limp, it was a min-raise from UTG. Which is pretty normal, when stacks are this short. I dont like 3-betting here. Any 3-bet is an effective jam against both players, and it also put a lot of chips at risk against all the players, which are left to act behind.

KQs is a good hand, but its not great against either an UTG open range at a 8-handed table or the range, that call next to act. So I actually think, the best play here is to just get out of the way.

Yes its tight, but positions matter. Its way different, if HJ min-open, CO call, and now the action is on you on BTN. Then its 100% mandatory to continue with KQs, but in this situation I would just hate my life and let it go.


I cant say it much better than this. When we do 3bet here the effective stacks are practically all in and we will have to call them off with almost any sizing we would use. When we do this we are going to run into ALOT of Ax hands that have us crushed.

In summary, I think you played it just fine. It's a dry flop for our KQ aside from some hopeful backdoor flush outs - the turn and river are irrelevant. We missed flop, we lost the minimum and we move on.
 
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Minikiwi9

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Interesting thought about folding, I really didn't consider it. Not going to hate my life though:D

I know it wasn't a limp. I agree squeezing would be a big risk especially with players behind to act. I'm still not convinced that its -EV though. I like the outlook though I know hearing thoughts from others is what will help me improve the fastest so thank you:cool:

This was not a limp, it was a min-raise from UTG. Which is pretty normal, when stacks are this short. I dont like 3-betting here. Any 3-bet is an effective jam against both players, and it also put a lot of chips at risk against all the players, which are left to act behind.

KQs is a good hand, but its not great against either an UTG open range at a 8-handed table or the range, that call next to act. So I actually think, the best play here is to just get out of the way.

Yes its tight, but positions matter. Its way different, if HJ min-open, CO call, and now the action is on you on BTN. Then its 100% mandatory to continue with KQs, but in this situation I would just hate my life and let it go.
 
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zhilipp

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I don´t think raising was a good option. Either call or fold and after the flop its a pretty clear fold. UTG1 might hit a set and you cant outplay them because he is all in.
 
SuzdalDEcor

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Yeap, it was not a limp. It was cold call. I Think cold call will be better because UTG range very strong. Your hand not good vs his range. I always play this hand like you.
 
eetenor

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This was not a limp, it was a min-raise from UTG. Which is pretty normal, when stacks are this short. I dont like 3-betting here. Any 3-bet is an effective jam against both players, and it also put a lot of chips at risk against all the players, which are left to act behind.

KQs is a good hand, but its not great against either an UTG open range at a 8-handed table or the range, that call next to act. So I actually think, the best play here is to just get out of the way.

Yes its tight, but positions matter. Its way different, if HJ min-open, CO call, and now the action is on you on BTN. Then its 100% mandatory to continue with KQs, but in this situation I would just hate my life and let it go.

Thank U 4 Posting.

Your point on folding is excellent.

In the title of the original post it was "squeeze or call?"

Folding is such a powerful tool. The AI's all have folds as good plays some percentage of the time. Yet so many players see a hand like KhQh and value it on a linear scale not on a situational one.

If the solver says fold KhQh 9% preflop this is most likely part of that 9%.

We have UTG raising AA KK QQ AK AQ even AhJh

But not likely raising hands we dominate like KJ or K10

Then a 7 bb stack calls 2 bb.

Folding has to be better than calling and raising is -ICM with those 2 conditions.

Best case scenario we flop a flush draw and get it in for 5 bb more vs V2 after UTG check folds.
We hate a Kx or Qx flop if UTG bets or any flop that we have over cards on but no flush draw. If we call and hit a Q on the turn what now? UTG bets again we go with it?

KhQh in this spot is a trap hand. Calling makes the trap bad, so does raising.

Fold is the best play for this situation.

SAY IT LOUD AND PROUD!

I FOLD:albertein:vroam:
 
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fundiver199

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Folding is such a powerful tool. The AI's all have folds as good plays some percentage of the time. Yet so many players see a hand like KhQh and value it on a linear scale not on a situational one.
This is exactly my point. Some hands seem "to good to fold", but its always situational. In this case we are only facing a mini-raise, but all the action is in early position, and we have several player left to act behind us. I did not even mention this in my original post, but when we flat here, a decent amount of the time someone behind will squeeze, and then we have to fold. So now we need to make up for that 2BB loss, when we are allowed to see a flop.

Then a 7 bb stack calls 2 bb.
And he does it with 6 players still left to act behind him. This should sound the alarm bell at least a little bit. He could just be bad of course, but there is also a decent risk, this might be a trap with a premium hand. Its rarely going to be a hand, which KQs dominate.

We hate a Kx or Qx flop if UTG bets or any flop that we have over cards on but no flush draw. If we call and hit a Q on the turn what now? UTG bets again we go with it?
Exactly. We have reverse implied odds against the UTG range, when we hit top pair.

KhQh in this spot is a trap hand. Calling makes the trap bad, so does raising. Fold is the best play for this situation.
Looking at this in a broader perspective, we were a big stack, and then its generally not desirable to play for half our chips against a medium stack. Its much better for us to steal some blinds and antes, and maybe play a "flip" against a small stack now and then. So we should mainly be looking for spots, where we can raise first in, and since this was not possible here, and we did not have a really premium hand, we should pass.
 
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300HPGOD

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I dont think squeezing here is correct since you would be opening the door for a 4 bet jam that you arent strong enough to call plus you are not really deep being around 40 BB. I think the call here is fine although you are susceptible to someone after you 3 betting . However, you have a hand that flops well so I would take the risk of someone raising after me and just make the call.
 
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xrhstos

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Folding preflop here is the best decision on the long run.
If you have some notes on the UTG, UTG+1 villains folding too much on 3bets and your image on the table is tight, only then you can consider a squeeze.
Calling is probably the worst decision, not only you open yourself into getting dominated postflop by AK, AQ but also have to make a really loose call if someone behind decides to jam.
 
deyvsonflp

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This hand and how it was played is excellent for squeezing. It is better than just calling.
 
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