$6.60 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Rebuy: Sick spot with trips

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Cyclone Special 1500gtd on ACR

Average stack is approximately 70k
Already ITM, approximately 50 players remain.
Blind levels 1k/2k +anties?

UTG+1 chips are 85k, opens to 4.5k
MP1 chips 199k, calls 4.5k
CO chips 150k, calls 4.5k

Me/Hero - chips 60k, Sitting on the button with :ks4::qd4:I call
and BB - chips 99k, makes the call.

To the flop 5 way.
Pot approx. 26k (I'm not sure about anties - but there is anties so pot is obviously larger)

Is calling here optimal?
I decided to call rather than raise in this spot because I wanted to keep 'options' open for myself on the flop/turn. By raising in this spot, we would have possibly seen the flop with less opponents, or - even less appealing was the risk facing one or more pre-flop shoves in response to my raise, in which case I think we would have to fold if more than one of the other larger stack shoved over us here. Calling any shove here would only be a flip at best. Thoughts?

Table dynamics - I'm one of the smaller stacks here on the table. After money bubble popped - the most aggression has come from shorter stacks shoving preflop, and larger stacks calling and busting them, or the shorter stacks doubling up. Most pots have been 2-3 way at most. Several players with larger stacks have attempted the table captain role - resulting in bust-out, or drastic reduction in chips.
About half of the table has recently shuffled in the past 5-6 hands, I'm near the bottom of the chip count total, but still feel comfortable with 20+ bb.

I'm familiar with UTG+1 and BB. They have both been playing solid, tight poker up to this point. The two big stacks in MP1 and CO are new to the table.

My table image is most likely tight - I have played about 5 hands in the last hour, winning a preflop all-in with QQs, and taking down 2 hands on the flop from LP.


Flop comes :10d4::kh4::kd4:

Oh boy!

UTG+1 bets 15k.
MP1 jams for 199k effective.
CO calls the jam with his remaining chips.

What the heck is going on here??

No determinable timing tells here to note - other than both MP1 and CO didn't hesitate to shove and call with there big stacks.

What hands beat me in this spot?
Pocket Tens, K/T & A/K are the only hands that are beating me, 11 total combos?

This is an obvious easy call right?
We have already min-cashed - I'm feeling good about making it into late game, I'm not looking to bust out here but this is part of the game - there is no option other than calling in this spot. If I'm beat - that's just poker right?
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
It might sound tight, but I am actually just folding here. KQo does not have good equity against a UTG+1 open from a tight player, and it suffer from quite a bit of reserve implied odds. Flop comes KXX, he has AA, AK or a set. Flop comes QXX, he has AA, KK, AQ or a set.

The fact, that two other players have called, makes it even worse, because it increase the risk, that you flop top pair and feel kind of committed to the pot, but someone else flopped a set or two pair. You are also getting a worse price, because more people are contending for the blinds and antes.

Flop
With this crazy action I am just folding. Yes its only 10 combos, that beat you, but with 3 players showing interest in the hand, and two of them jamming, it is quite likely, that at least one of them has it. In the best of worlds you are looking at someone with KJ, someone with QJ and someone with A5 of diamonds. But that is really optimistic, and even then you will get drawn out on a decent amount of the time.
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Preflop
It might sound tight, but I am actually just folding here. KQo does not have good equity against a UTG+1 open from a tight player, and it suffer from quite a bit of reserve implied odds. Flop comes KXX, he has AA, AK or a set. Flop comes QXX, he has AA, KK, AQ or a set.

The fact, that two other players have called, makes it even worse, because it increase the risk, that you flop top pair and feel kind of committed to the pot, but someone else flopped a set or two pair. You are also getting a worse price, because more people are contending for the blinds and antes.

Flop
With this crazy action I am just folding. Yes its only 10 combos, that beat you, but with 3 players showing interest in the hand, and two of them jamming, it is quite likely, that at least one of them has it. In the best of worlds you are looking at someone with KJ, someone with QJ and someone with A5 of diamonds. But that is really optimistic, and even then you will get drawn out on a decent amount of the time.

Thanks for your input fundiver. Yeah - looking back - you are right this is a fold - in this spot - with the action in front at this stage of the event.
Unfortunately - I was multi-tabling and I did not capture the complete hand. I had written down that I was dealt KdQd - but knowing the results - this could not have been what I was dealt.

Would suitedness alter your preflop decision in this spot at this stage of the event?


Anyway though - I 100% agree with your analysis - I must of had donk goggles - I GOT TRIPS CALL for this particular hand.

I made the call - and holy crap!! UTG+1 also comes along for the ride.

UTG+1 flips over :ah4::as4:

MP1 turns over :qc4::jc4:

CO is holding :kc4::jd4:


Turn :9d4:

River:qs4:


I guess - I subscribe to the belief that to win big events - at times - most players that are going to make a run for the title will need to make a move at one point during the event, maybe even multiple times - in certain spots.
Is making a move defined as 3,4,5 betting with junk cards from the blinds? Is making a move continuing from EP with 7/6 suited facing a UTG open, or making a light call with a suited ace facing a 5x open from MP, or shoving on the rivers with air? Making moves could be a bunch of different unconventional things players do - to win more chips.
This light call on the button - was my move for this event.

This brings up a genuine question;
When do we as players make a light call - when facing super aggression - and not regret it?
I have made loose calls at times when I have a read on a player or notes that inform past actions. Tendencies are very telling. Sometimes I regret - yep he had quads and my tptk was no good. LOL
Additionally - there is a 'thing' that, at certain times - players do when they have a BIG hand - where they can't let it go - even though - the board is tilting in favor of another hand. I have experienced this a time or two - and when that happens - some players have a tendency to OVER bluff there BIG hands - because there is no way my AA are getting cracked here. I have the big stack - I'll push the other players out of the pot. That was exactly what was happening in that hand - and if I had folded to that post-flop aggression - I doubt I would have gone on to place as high as I did.
Sure - results oriented - but making the 'right' decision sometimes - goes against the aggressive actions of others. We should also be content when making the correct call - and winning - when other hands could have us dominated, but the 'semi-bluff' actions of other players often makes us believe we are toast - when in fact we really aren't.

I agree with your assessment pre-flop - but that is also assuming UTG is opening as tight as as a tight player would, although - I suspect most players are not opening this tight from utg. Anyway - he really was - he just didn't have the king, and I did. I considered just for a second - I have a blocker here - so if I'm beat so be it.

I ended up taking 3rd for a nice BR boost, off the back of this monster stack I scooped. I don't regret making the light call preflop, nor the call on the flop. I'd make the same call today as I did before.
 
theANMATOR

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but with 3 players showing interest in the hand, and two of them jamming, it is quite likely, that at least one of them has it.

You know - this ^^ is exactly what went through my head - but I was reserved to the fate of these cards - after flopping trips here. I was settled on either this was the end - or I was going to make a run into the late stages of the game. I certainly thought I was either crushed by A/K, TTs or I was going to win this - and the pot was too juicy to pass up.

I was surprised I was ahead when I made the call. I think those big stacks came from a table they were totally dominating with high aggression, to this table - where solid tight poker was being played. Additionally when the Ace of diamonds wasn't flipped by any of the opponents - my outlook rose a lot. The turn was dicey but river came in like a bomb!
 
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fundiver199

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So you won it then? But this is indeed rather lucky. I am not surpriced, that MP1 had a draw. In fact it would be weird to just pile it in with a strong made hand and especially a boat. The player, we are most worried about here, is CO. He called an all in getting bad odds with two players left behind him. And unless he is really bad, he is not doing this with a draw on a paired board, where he could be drawing dead. So he has to have a strong made hand, but luckily for you he had the one, which was just one pip worse than yours. UTG+1 calling behind with AA is pretty crazy. He should have snap folded, but it just goes to show, how people sometimes get married to their hand :)
 
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fundiver199

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Would suitedness alter your preflop decision in this spot at this stage of the event?

KQs is a much better hand than KQo. With KQs I might put in a squeeze play, and calling with position can also be ok. Its still not great, but at least better.
 
jaworek1405

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Hello, I agree a little with fundiver199. Someday when I wasn't too experienced I was calling open raise with kqo from the button. After many hands with situation like your I decided always fold pre flop KQo, because I saw many times strong hands like Ak or AQ from the utg. I understood that probably in a long run I lose chips when I caught top pair. From the button I call broadway suited connectors like KQs to caught some draws. When you play poker tournament call your attention what players from UTG open raise, often they raise pre flop strong hands AK and AQo. As played, in this situation when caught the trips on the flop I think we have to call, becuase we have good kicker. IMO players from the MP and CO don't have AK becuase if somebody would have AK then somebody usually should 3bet pre flop with this hand. I think that call on these players looks good. We have one problem, because more possible is player from the utg can have strong hand, as I said, hand AK from the UTG is more possible. In multipots situation is more possible that somebody call pre flop with medium pocket pair, more possible that somebody caught a set, if somebody caught a set or something stronger, it hurt, but it sometimes encounter all players.
 
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fundiver199

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For the record I dont think, this call is terrible, and I can certainly see, why in the heat of the moment the "call" button is pressed. Normally I would feel pretty committed to the pot, when I started the hand with 30BB and flopped a strong top pair, and even more so if I flopped trips.

So its only the multiway nature of the pot and the crazy action, which makes me lean towards a fold. The thing here is, we can be almost certain, someone has a draw, so we are either getting it in slightly good or really bad. In top of that we also need to consider ICM, and even though we are in the money, trippling our stack once is not as good, as busting twice is bad.
 
theANMATOR

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So you won it then? But this is indeed rather lucky. I am not surpriced, that MP1 had a draw. In fact it would be weird to just pile it in with a strong made hand and especially a boat. The player, we are most worried about here, is CO. He called an all in getting bad odds with two players left behind him. And unless he is really bad, he is not doing this with a draw on a paired board, where he could be drawing dead. So he has to have a strong made hand, but luckily for you he had the one, which was just one pip worse than yours. UTG+1 calling behind with AA is pretty crazy. He should have snap folded, but it just goes to show, how people sometimes get married to their hand :)
HAHA! Your response sounds a little surprised. I was as well :)
I don't only post hands I loose. The main reason was to get some admonishment from the community - for the loose preflop call - and then winning, surprisingly (with luck!).
Maybe scrape together a little justification for the call I made. I agree with your post flop assessment mentioned above.


Hello, I agree a little with fundiver199. Someday when I wasn't too experienced I was calling open raise with kqo from the button. After many hands with situation like your I decided always fold pre flop KQo, because I saw many times strong hands like Ak or AQ from the utg. I understood that probably in a long run I lose chips when I caught top pair. From the button I call broadway suited connectors like KQs to caught some draws. When you play poker tournament call your attention what players from UTG open raise, often they raise pre flop strong hands AK and AQo. As played, in this situation when caught the trips on the flop I think we have to call, becuase we have good kicker. IMO players from the MP and CO don't have AK becuase if somebody would have AK then somebody usually should 3bet pre flop with this hand. I think that call on these players looks good. We have one problem, because more possible is player from the utg can have strong hand, as I said, hand AK from the UTG is more possible. In multipots situation is more possible that somebody call pre flop with medium pocket pair, more possible that somebody caught a set, if somebody caught a set or something stronger, it hurt, but it sometimes encounter all players.
This light call by me could also have been a side effect of seeing a lot of play taking place while I was reserved to folding and watching with my smaller stack, and lack of playable cards in the right spots.


For the record I dont think, this call is terrible, and I can certainly see, why in the heat of the moment the "call" button is pressed. Normally I would feel pretty committed to the pot, when I started the hand with 30BB and flopped a strong top pair, and even more so if I flopped trips.
So its only the multiway nature of the pot and the crazy action, which makes me lean towards a fold. The thing here is, we can be almost certain, someone has a draw, so we are either getting it in slightly good or really bad. In top of that we also need to consider ICM, and even though we are in the money, trippling our stack once is not as good, as busting twice is bad.
Totally accurate - closing in on the larger sums of money - not many hands played in the past hour, hey hey! here are two big broadways - lets play! :)


Fundiver - can you and jaworek speak to this question I mentioned? This has me a little befuddled and I'm not entirely sure why. I won the hand - I got lucky, I made a light call pre and a hope and pray call post - and ended up I was ahead, and won over other stronger preflop hands, and a better draw, but I'm not discouraged by either of the calls I made.
Proper, strong decision making is very much a core element of the game, so is luck, and so is risk. With that said -
When do we as players make a light call - when facing super aggression - and not regret it?

This was a light call, beat the best starting hand - and increased the stack x4 and I almost feel like I should have never made the call preflop, even though this was a key hand that compelled me into a 3rd place finish. As mentioned in my second post - it seems like making deep runs require making a 'move' at some point during an event. I don't see many players making FT playing exclusively NIT premium holdings.
It seems everybody has a suckout on the way to a FT appearance. It might be making two pair with A/T suited to beat pocket QQ or A/K, or it could be calling a preflop all-in with 55s and hitting a set to bust another player holding a better starting hand.
 
jaworek1405

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Hello theANMATOR, I would like to answer on question that you mentioned, but I'm not sure what question you mean now?
 
moulan7

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Jeez, what are those players doing xD, they know nothing else other than aggression which seems that it's a very misunderstood and overused concept.
The worst action is by far UTG's call. One of those 3 other players should have had a King and as it turned out he lost from everyone lol.
Anyways..

Preflop I call too here just because the odds are too good to be true and even if we are out of position and probably at the bottom of the range of the UTG player I call in case I flop a monster xD. If the only player in the pot is the UTG opener I fold for the reasons fundiver describes.
I can't consider the 3bet option with such a weak holding like KQo against an UTG opener, 2 callers and a 30bb stack. This will put us in a very marginal spot. What would have been the size of that 3bet? And if UTG 4bets/shoves?

Dream Flop comes true xD.
What are they doing? I can't fold here. I just can't. I know we are loosing sometimes but I don't know if I can put my holding down and if folding is the right move. Maybe in a 100k buy-in tour :p .
Certainly MP has nothing lol, I'm a bit worried about CO and then UTG, but since CO has almost always has a King or 1010 and we hold a King then UTG is not much of a threat I guess.
Call xD
 
theANMATOR

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Odds Calculation

Hey Gents. I haven't had time to succinctly clear up my question I asked above. I will do that once I get through the big games today.

However I wanted to throw in the odds calculation on the flop into the discussion - It seems my crying call was a total no brainer.
 

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Jon Poker

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This is another marginal spot we just dont need to take. UTGs opening range should have our KQ KQ crushed if they are playing it correctly and with all the action in front it's going to be more like for our hand to be dominated - we are just going to be doing a ton of check-folding unless we smash the flop. Giving away chips like this consistently will be detrimental to our run in the tournament.

Losing 2bb or 3bb here and there is normal. Calling off lots of marginal spots just to fold will cost us 10s or BBs throughout the tournament and could make the difference in how we finish. It's a pattern I see in your hand histories you are posting for review and a bad habit at that.

This is a 3bet or fold kind of spot and given all the action which has taken place in front we should be folding here. There are just way better spots we could be taking than this one.

As played - we call and we flop trips. We only lose to KT, AK and TT - we also hold the Q of diamonds which blocks the flush and straight draws available - these are all good factors and should aid in our decision - but the reality is we flopped insanely well and now we are simply not folding.

Once we flop the world like this we are committed. If we are to lose this hand in some way then it is our own fault - we called a marginal holding preflop, smashed the flop to where we cannot ever fold and we wouldn't be in this spot had we not gotten involved to begin with.

Summary is simple - 3bet or fold preflop- too much action in front, just fold and dont look back.

As played, we flopped way too strong to fold and we hold a relatively important blocker as well - snap call and take whatever results may come.
 
VovanBaron

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Cyclone Special 1500gtd on ACR

Average stack is approximately 70k
Already ITM, approximately 50 players remain.
Blind levels 1k/2k +anties?

UTG+1 chips are 85k, opens to 4.5k
MP1 chips 199k, calls 4.5k
CO chips 150k, calls 4.5k

Me/Hero - chips 60k, Sitting on the button with :ks4::qd4:I call
and BB - chips 99k, makes the call.

To the flop 5 way.
Pot approx. 26k (I'm not sure about anties - but there is anties so pot is obviously larger)

Is calling here optimal?
I decided to call rather than raise in this spot because I wanted to keep 'options' open for myself on the flop/turn. By raising in this spot, we would have possibly seen the flop with less opponents, or - even less appealing was the risk facing one or more pre-flop shoves in response to my raise, in which case I think we would have to fold if more than one of the other larger stack shoved over us here. Calling any shove here would only be a flip at best. Thoughts?

Table dynamics - I'm one of the smaller stacks here on the table. After money bubble popped - the most aggression has come from shorter stacks shoving preflop, and larger stacks calling and busting them, or the shorter stacks doubling up. Most pots have been 2-3 way at most. Several players with larger stacks have attempted the table captain role - resulting in bust-out, or drastic reduction in chips.
About half of the table has recently shuffled in the past 5-6 hands, I'm near the bottom of the chip count total, but still feel comfortable with 20+ bb.

I'm familiar with UTG+1 and BB. They have both been playing solid, tight poker up to this point. The two big stacks in MP1 and CO are new to the table.

My table image is most likely tight - I have played about 5 hands in the last hour, winning a preflop all-in with QQs, and taking down 2 hands on the flop from LP.


Flop comes :10d4::kh4::kd4:

Oh boy!

UTG+1 bets 15k.
MP1 jams for 199k effective.
CO calls the jam with his remaining chips.

What the heck is going on here??

No determinable timing tells here to note - other than both MP1 and CO didn't hesitate to shove and call with there big stacks.

What hands beat me in this spot?
Pocket Tens, K/T & A/K are the only hands that are beating me, 11 total combos?

This is an obvious easy call right?
We have already min-cashed - I'm feeling good about making it into late game, I'm not looking to bust out here but this is part of the game - there is no option other than calling in this spot. If I'm beat - that's just poker right?
Overcalling with KQo is a right play for you , no problem with this. Interesting spot.
You should play more hands with broadways and high cards while your stack become shallow. I think that you can play 20% range here with such stacksize cause you can widen your overcalling range after 2 or 3 callers, QQ+ and AK is obviously value rejam with 30bb, AKs can be calling sometimes cause this hand have less vulnerables than AKo postflop.You can be tighter for few hands and dont call QJo K6s ...it is ok
7ecc789ddfe99d4165866433608f4799.png

Postflop is great hand, there is no fold,trips is nunts.
 
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theANMATOR

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This is another marginal spot we just dont need to take. UTGs opening range should have our KQ KQ crushed if they are playing it correctly and with all the action in front it's going to be more like for our hand to be dominated - we are just going to be doing a ton of check-folding unless we smash the flop. Giving away chips like this consistently will be detrimental to our run in the tournament.

Losing 2bb or 3bb here and there is normal. Calling off lots of marginal spots just to fold will cost us 10s or BBs throughout the tournament and could make the difference in how we finish. It's a pattern I see in your hand histories you are posting for review and a bad habit at that.

This is a 3bet or fold kind of spot and given all the action which has taken place in front we should be folding here. There are just way better spots we could be taking than this one.

As played - we call and we flop trips. We only lose to KT, AK and TT - we also hold the Q of diamonds which blocks the flush and straight draws available - these are all good factors and should aid in our decision - but the reality is we flopped insanely well and now we are simply not folding.

Once we flop the world like this we are committed. If we are to lose this hand in some way then it is our own fault - we called a marginal holding preflop, smashed the flop to where we cannot ever fold and we wouldn't be in this spot had we not gotten involved to begin with.

Summary is simple - 3bet or fold preflop- too much action in front, just fold and dont look back.

As played, we flopped way too strong to fold and we hold a relatively important blocker as well - snap call and take whatever results may come.


Hey Jon - thank you for your comments.
The main reason I choose to play this hand was because of the low cost to get in. Can you explain what 3betting - if that is the better option here rather than calling or folding - would accomplish? I assume it would allow you to get away from the hand cheaper - when you were eventually 4bet, or it might give you information on the other opponents holdings - if they only called the 3bet - it would be likely they did not have AA/KK/QQ, but players can be tricky sometimes - and only call with those hands - knowing they have the dominating hand going to the flop.
The downside is it inflates the pot - and causes me to give away more chips - if in fact I totally whiff the flop. If the flop comes A/8/6 rainbow - I'm obviously folding to any cbet with more than one opponent
By calling - I allow myself to see the flop for cheap - as long as there is no squeeze form the remaining players.

Optimal decision is a fold to find a better spot, but I'm interested in the view that 3betting here is better than just flatting.


Your second point about conserving chips instead of attempting to gain them - I understand at certain points during an event, however I had a plan with this hand, and it miraculously worked out, and propelled me to a top 3 finish.
Should we wait around for premiums, a pocket pair that 1/8 hits a set, and it has to be in the correct position. Open 4s from UTG+2 and then get 3bet 5x - what do we do? Fold - because pocket 44s from EP suck.
Sit around and blind down, until we are table changed and one of the top 3 chip stacks get seated to our right - and he is opening every hand 4.5x. What hand do we play in these spots? K/Q o would be one as long as there were less than 3 players left to act.
I'm just wondering when it is appropriate during a tourney to make a move - make a lighter than 'common' call with a good but not great hand? I can't play NIT, unless I'm under 10bb and nearing a bubble.

I think making moves (not shoving preflop with T/9 suited) like this are exact spots where we can risk 2.5bb to see if we can gain more than we loose.
Is this play any worse than shoving pocket 88s preflop from UTG+2 with 22bb stack?
Is this play any worse than blinding down to 10bb and shoving with middle pair on the flop vs only one opponent?
Is this move worse than calling a initial open from UTG+1 and a min-3bet from CO with 8/9 suited from the button? This could also be a 3bet as well depending on variables. :)

I still do agree - this was too loose of a call - I'm just trying to gauge how other players make final tables - playing so tight all the time. I seem to be slightly more LAG than I realize. :)

I have posted several of these marginal call/fold hands for feedback - because I KNOW they were wrong - light calls - in spots were if I were playing tight - they would have been easy folds. However 2 of these hands have propelled me to two top 4 finishes. So it's quite interesting to know these were not optimal plays, and they worked. Yes - I'm sure in the long run they will be losing plays - but I'm not making these calls - every time I'm in this situation. But the results are making me want to more and more. LOL - I know that is wrong, and could turn into a leak (bad habit) over time.
 
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