$5 NLHE STT: 56o bad push?

micromoi · Jan 27, 2017

Hero (SB): 3,054 (19.1 bb)
BB: 2,309 (14.4 bb)
CO: 2,794 (17.5 bb)
BTN: 5,343 (33.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with

2 folds, Hero raises to 3,034 and is all-in, BB calls 2,129 and is all-in

Flop: (4,658)

:Kh:

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: (4,658)

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: (4,658) :Jd: (2 players, 2 are all-in)

trent32la · Jan 28, 2017

Are there antes in play? This is pretty close if so. Against a NIT/fish I'm jamming here all day and possibly 2.5x/folding. Against a decent reg I'm folding.

t1riel · Jan 29, 2017

I wouldn't jam here in most cases. Maybe a raise preflop to see if your opponent has anything decent.

Jauheni Danilenka · Jan 29, 2017

I agree .. and this is the beauty of poker games

Gabinho12345 · Jan 29, 2017

If your opponent is tight it's not a bad shove.

ivanbbb · Jan 30, 2017

a lot depends on the player's line of play in the big blind, of course there are many fakorov in poker, but I think with this game you will be hard in the long run!

mbrenneman0 · Jan 30, 2017

I would consider myself to have a pretty aggresive push/fold game but im never pushing 56o ever unless its 2 or 3 handed and i have less than 5bb

matt0216 · Feb 1, 2017

mbrenneman0 said:
I would consider myself to have a pretty aggresive push/fold game but im never pushing 56o ever unless its 2 or 3 handed and i have less than 5bb

You're not being aggressive enough then. There are plenty of spots at 10bb+ where it'd be a big mistake not to jam 56o or any other hand. You can't really confine your decision making for certain hands to specific stack sizes because there are spots where you should feel comfortable jamming 56o at 15bb, but then spots where you need to fold 56o at 5bb. It's all about what the stack setup looks like and who your opponents are.

Regarding the spot in the OP, I'm not jamming that much on the bubble with this stack setup, but I still would vs certain people. You can also use this spot to think about what you would do if you were shoving into the big stack here (shove much tighter), or shoving as the big stack (shove much looser). The ranges are so much different in each of those spots because of how icm dictates your decisions. So, 56o would be a +EV shove as the big stack in the SB, probably a +EV shove in the spot the OP was in, then a very -EV shove if the big stack was in the BB.

mbrenneman0 · Feb 1, 2017

matt0216 said:
You're not being aggressive enough then. There are plenty of spots at 10bb+ where it'd be a big mistake not to jam 56o or any other hand. You can't really confine your decision making for certain hands to specific stack sizes because there are spots where you should feel comfortable jamming 56o at 15bb, but then spots where you need to fold 56o at 5bb. It's all about what the stack setup looks like and who your opponents are.

Regarding the spot in the OP, I'm not jamming that much on the bubble with this stack setup, but I still would vs certain people. You can also use this spot to think about what you would do if you were shoving into the big stack here (shove much tighter), or shoving as the big stack (shove much looser). The ranges are so much different in each of those spots because of how icm dictates your decisions. So, 56o would be a +EV shove as the big stack in the SB, probably a +EV shove in the spot the OP was in, then a very -EV shove if the big stack was in the BB.

referencing the work ive done with ICMizer, you only push 56o in the SB with 8bb or less. you dont even shove 56o from the button unless you have less than 5bb

matt0216 · Feb 1, 2017

There are a ton of spots where you need to be shoving 56o wider than that.

For example, here's a spot I just put into ICMIZER to illustrate:

We're on the bubble of a 9man SNG as the big stack shoving BvB at 10bb effective. If we were 20bb effective here, or shoving from the CO or BTN, the results would be similar.

I brought up the Hand EV chart to show that 56o is a +EV shove until the BB is calling wider than 31%. Clearly, the BB would never call 31% or anything close to it (nash is to call 3.8%) so we need to be shoving 56o and every other single hand here 100% of the time.

Late game SNGs are much less about the strength of your hand and more about your stack size and how it relates to the stacks at the rest of the table.

mbrenneman0 · Feb 1, 2017

Edit: sorry i shouldnt do math while im playing headsup... one sec

Edit 2:

okay, you're right, thats a spot where shoving 56o is +EV, I never took ICMizer to build range charts for the bubble, i just have range charts built for 5 handed or more... primarily because theres so many different situational aspects with the bubble...

I canceled my subscription to ICMizer when i took a break and havent renewed my sub yet, but i'd be interested to see how or if that changes with 10bb effective if he's the big stack and your the shortest stack at the table.

Is that EV measured as a % of the buy in or..?
i think that EV difference is marginal enough where im still okay with waiting for a better spot though

matt0216 · Feb 1, 2017

To make it a bit more of an extreme spot; here's the same situation at 20bb.

I'm just trying to show you how it's all about your stack in relation to the other stacks at the table. It never really matters what your exact stack is, whether it's 5bb, 10bb, or 20bb. It's about how much pressure or lack of pressure you can put on the other stacks at the table

recerveau · Feb 1, 2017

Without knowing the style of the villain is difficult to say.
He had (14bb) was not so short. And you with (19bb) and a hand 56o, could have expected a better hand to push.
And there was still the fact that the blinds were not so high.

mbrenneman0 · Feb 1, 2017

matt0216 said:
To make it a bit more of an extreme spot; here's the same situation at 20bb.

I'm just trying to show you how it's all about your stack in relation to the other stacks at the table. It never really matters what your exact stack is, whether it's 5bb, 10bb, or 20bb. It's about how much pressure or lack of pressure you can put on the other stacks at the table

see my edit above if you havent already^

matt0216 · Feb 1, 2017

Is that EV measured as a % of the buy in or..?
i think that EV difference is marginal enough where im still okay with waiting for a better spot though

That is in EV%. It's only that marginal assuming a BB calling range of 31% (which is never happening). If BB was calling 10% of his hands (he shouldn't even be that wide) it would be +.58%, so that's a very good spot for us.

mbrenneman0 said:
I canceled my subscription to ICMizer when i took a break and havent renewed my sub yet, but i'd be interested to see how or if that changes with 10bb effective if he's the big stack and your the shortest stack at the table.

So, this is what we would expect. We have to be much more cautious when shoving into the big stack because we put very little pressure on his stack in this set-up.

I never took ICMizer to build range charts for the bubble, i just have range charts built for 5 handed or more... primarily because theres so many different situational aspects with the bubble...

That's what makes the bubble great and why it's so difficult to play correctly. There are so many possible situations with different opponents, stack sizes, and hands. Best part of SNGs

.

mbrenneman0 · Feb 1, 2017

ahh okay, thanks man. i think you may have just helped me identify a leak on my game. ill have take the time to play with some bubble situations on icmizer this weekend

trent32la · Feb 1, 2017

+1 to everything Matt said, he nailed it.

No money in SNGs though

mbrenneman0 · Feb 1, 2017

trent32la said:
+1 to everything Matt said, he nailed it.

No money in SNGs though

yeah i know, i like to play them for the relatively low varience and the player pool is pretty outright awful right now... im trying to run up a roll to play MTTs. (ive got about half a proper roll right now.) i could put up the other half if i wanted to but its fun trying to run it up

but sadly it seems like sngs are dying out in ignition... T.T they really were always my favorite game...

didn't ACR come out with a new SNG style game recently? have either of you tried them?

matt0216 · Feb 1, 2017

Trent was just joking.

SNGs are very much alive on Ignition even at the highest buy-ins they offer.

I don't believe ACR has released their new SNG yet and honestly at this point I refuse to play on that site lol. Everything that site does is way too gimmicky and they refuse to address the biggest issues.

mbrenneman0 · Feb 1, 2017

matt0216 said:
Trent was just joking.

SNGs are very much alive on Ignition even at the highest buy-ins they offer.

I don't believe ACR has released their new SNG yet and honestly at this point I refuse to play on that site lol. Everything that site does is way too gimmicky and they refuse to address the biggest issues.

ah gotchya. i tried playing some sngs this morning and there werent any turbos going in the micros and i had to play two $5 regular speeds and two $1 games because there werent enough going to four-table the $5 games. obviously the traffic is better in evenings and weekends but you used to be able to load up four $5 turbos and get in all four games pretty quick less than a year ago

lilu80 · Feb 2, 2017

Cmoon 56o is 80% range! From SB you can push with this only when yout stack is about less M2! With your stack here isn`t push phaze (when not ante). You play AI not push and your AI (when not ante) here is bad and very EV-. When in this is ante, your stack is M8 and you can play from SB push with about 55% range (when is ante).

$5 NLHE STT: 56o bad push?

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