$5.5 NLHE MTT Bounty: KQs in 3bet pot (IP)

partypoker - 300/600 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 59.24 BB
MP: 38.53 BB
Hero (MP+1): 51.57 BB
CO: 72.43 BB
BTN: 62.98 BB
SB: 47.6 BB
BB: 24.92 BB
UTG: 51.82 BB

8 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: Q:diamond:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, SB raises to 7 BB, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

Flop: (16 BB, 2 players) T:spade: 5:heart: J:heart:
SB bets 5 BB, Hero raises to 18 BB, SB raises to 40.47 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 22.47 BB

Turn: (96.94 BB, 2 players) A:heart:

River: (96.94 BB, 2 players) 3:heart:

I decided to call because KQs plays good postflop and I have position...
What do you think?

Preflop you cant fold, always call unless some solid reason. Flop just call vs that sizing. We dont have enough equity to get it in on flop vs his range.

I call the 3 bet pre w a reasonable hand and position. You are both also pretty deep stacked so you have a chance at a pretty big upside if you both hit a hand where you take his stack.

I call the flop, but had he checked I would have bet. I don't mind the raise though it is a good draw with 2 overs.

Call pre.
Call flop. No reason to 3bet flop. The results are not important as you committed yourself to the pot and will be called only by better hands.

I am not sure why you all think KQs should call pre. Don't take me wrong it is not the worst call ever but investing 14% of your stack with king high is not something I would opt for.
On the flop, I actually like your attempt to win it right there, my best guess is that you hoped opponent has AK or AQ and you can throw them of a hand. But once villain shoves, those 2 are pretty much out of equation, meaning he probably has sets or overpairs KK or AA (probably not QQ). That being said, your call on the flop is wrong imo, just fold it.
I will guess you got lucky, and won, unless villain had set of T with a heart.

Bozovicdj said:

I am not sure why you all think KQs should call pre. Don't take me wrong it is not the worst call ever but investing 14% of your stack with king high is not something I would opt for.
On the flop, I actually like your attempt to win it right there, my best guess is that you hoped opponent has AK or AQ and you can throw them of a hand. But once villain shoves, those 2 are pretty much out of equation, meaning he probably has sets or overpairs KK or AA (probably not QQ). That being said, your call on the flop is wrong imo, just fold it.
I will guess you got lucky, and won, unless villain had set of T with a heart.

Click to expand...

Its 5BB more. After betting 2BB hero has 49BB. So its just over 10% of stack and not 14%

Bozovicdj said:

I am not sure why you all think KQs should call pre. Don't take me wrong it is not the worst call ever but investing 14% of your stack with king high is not something I would opt for.
On the flop, I actually like your attempt to win it right there, my best guess is that you hoped opponent has AK or AQ and you can throw them of a hand. But once villain shoves, those 2 are pretty much out of equation, meaning he probably has sets or overpairs KK or AA (probably not QQ). That being said, your call on the flop is wrong imo, just fold it.
I will guess you got lucky, and won, unless villain had set of T with a heart.

Click to expand...

Because you got to have calling range vs 3bets of sb out of the mp. If you are not calling KQs what exactly are you calling? His sizing is ok for sb vs mp and he can go even bigger slightly and still we wiuld have to defend KQs and also T9s/JTs/QJs the bigger he goes we can start folding a bit more but never KQs to 5bb more when there are antes or we just going to get super exploited.

MaSSive_1 said:

Because you got to have calling range vs 3bets of sb out of the mp. If you are not calling KQs what exactly are you calling? His sizing is ok for sb vs mp and he can go even bigger slightly and still we wiuld have to defend KQs and also T9s/JTs/QJs the bigger he goes we can start folding a bit more but never KQs to 5bb more when there are antes or we just going to get super exploited.

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From my perspective, withing 3-bet ranges are mostly pocket pairs JJ+ as well as AQs and AKs, aren't we dominated hard by this range? As far as T9s or JTs, I like those better for calling 3-bets, since we can actually beat AK-AQ if there is no K or a Q on the board, while also, our opponents are less likely to hold blockers for our potential straights (7-J,8-Q). Also, aren't you exploitable this way as well, where opponents know that you are calling 3-bets with K high (it is likely KJs is in that range as well), in which case, almost any Ax might be inclined to simply 3-bet and then C-bet on dry boards? Yes, this also opens the door for traping with premiums, but good players will always know how to exploit such info, rather then get exploited.

Problem is your SB 3b range vs HJ is completely off. This is how our 3betting range suppose to look give or take)

https://gyazo.com/f15acac7a6f8f4041395a6cec2b3f035

If you really 3b only top 5% range than vs you we should fold , but i really dont know anyone playing this way anymore.

Another point. If People start to 3b too wide we should not start folding KQs we should start 4betting other hands , KQs in this stack depth is just always a call because of its equity.

If opponents start to 3b any Ace it still doesnt matter because we will flop decent enough equity with KQs vs that.

MaSSive_1 said:

Problem is your SB 3b range vs HJ is completely off. This is how our 3betting range suppose to look give or take)

https://gyazo.com/f15acac7a6f8f4041395a6cec2b3f035

If you really 3b only top 5% range than vs you we should fold , but i really dont know anyone playing this way anymore.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Before looking I thought to myself that I would 3-bet AT+ KQ+, and 88+. It looks like I should be a little bit wider.

MaSSive_1 said:

Problem is your SB 3b range vs HJ is completely off. This is how our 3betting range suppose to look give or take)

https://gyazo.com/f15acac7a6f8f4041395a6cec2b3f035

If you really 3b only top 5% range than vs you we should fold , but i really dont know anyone playing this way anymore.

Click to expand...

Where did you find this range, and is it specifically tournament related? In cash games, I personally tend to call 3-bets more light as well as 4-bet with wider range of hands. In tournaments, especially online ones where blinds are getting higher every 10-15 mins, your 15% investment preflop becomes close to 20-25 on the next level. Tournament-wise I do not recommend such a wide range for just calling 3-bets unless there is some good read on the opponents where hero thinks he can outplay them post flop.

Bozovicdj said:

Where did you find this range, and is it specifically tournament related? In cash games, I personally tend to call 3-bets more light as well as 4-bet with wider range of hands. In tournaments, especially online ones where blinds are getting higher every 10-15 mins, your 15% investment preflop becomes close to 20-25 on the next level. Tournament-wise I do not recommend such a wide range for just calling 3-bets unless there is some good read on the opponents where hero thinks he can outplay them post flop.

Click to expand...

Well, its up to you if you disagree. I didnt not bring this range from anywhere, I did alot of work on the subject myself and this is the result. Yes this is tournament 3b frequency (sb vs hj) and not cash game ofc due to antes.


Your claim of making incorrect desicions because of blinds going up is sorry to say absolutely wrong. We should play a spot to the highest ev possible in each level without being concerned about level going up, especially in such one as above.


Only time I would worry or change some of my strategy due to blind levels going up is if for example i am really short on chips and blind is going up next hand I would be inclined to shove wider or call wider in certain spots.

ucdengboss said:

Thanks for the link. Before looking I thought to myself that I would 3-bet AT+ KQ+, and 88+. It looks like I should be a little bit wider.

Click to expand...

No problem, yes you should

Pre-flop is not up for debate really, it is easy call.

On the flop, I think I think you shouldn't have raising range with this stack sizes. Even if you have set of jacks you don't need to raise the flop to build up pot, it is huge already, it's better just to call. And since you don't raise with jacks, you shouldn't have bluffs neither. But, if you want to raise some hands, you could choose better bluff candidates, like SDFD. Also, since by raising you commit yourself to the pot, you should just shove and put villain in a tough spot with some good hands. Want to raise KQ, just shove it. Better than raising for sure.

MaSSive_1 said:

Preflop you cant fold, always call unless some solid reason. Flop just call vs that sizing. We dont have enough equity to get it in on flop vs his range.

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with those stacksizes i‘d agree with your PF analysis. On flop i think we have to balance. but if we do just call and he fires the turn, we‘d have to fold if we dont improve. also mighthave some awkward spots if we make a pair.
so i think we should sometimes mix in the jam and sometimes just call instead of raise

What a nice discussion, ty guys for your opinions

discussion

This is nice discussion, ty for your opinions

MaSSive_1 said:

Well, its up to you if you disagree. I didnt not bring this range from anywhere, I did alot of work on the subject myself and this is the result. Yes this is tournament 3b frequency (sb vs hj) and not cash game ofc due to antes.


Your claim of making incorrect desicions because of blinds going up is sorry to say absolutely wrong. We should play a spot to the highest ev possible in each level without being concerned about level going up, especially in such one as above.


Only time I would worry or change some of my strategy due to blind levels going up is if for example i am really short on chips and blind is going up next hand I would be inclined to shove wider or call wider in certain spots.

Click to expand...

Curious - I'm not sure I'm ever 3Bing this wide out of SB vs hijack. I would assume you expand this range versus a cutoff or button raise, so I would be really curious to see these ranges, as even adding a few hands would def seem to be "too wide" to me.

This is assuming a standard early or mid tournament spot. Late tourney I am making such adjustments, but I see such wide 3B ranges as being spewy oop.

Regardless, great discussion

Loonbat said:

Curious - I'm not sure I'm ever 3Bing this wide out of SB vs hijack. I would assume you expand this range versus a cutoff or button raise, so I would be really curious to see these ranges, as even adding a few hands would def seem to be "too wide" to me.

This is assuming a standard early or mid tournament spot. Late tourney I am making such adjustments, but I see such wide 3B ranges as being spewy oop.

Regardless, great discussion

Click to expand...

3b range of SB vs btn/co should be in the range of 14-17% i guess.
Will add suited Aces on much higher frequency and also suited connectors will be added.


I really dont know how to adress to 'too wide/spewy'. I did hard work on the subject and this is what I came up with as good ranges in these positions. In the low to midstakes mtts population.


Of course you can go tighter in hsmtts because people dont overfold and play more optimally.


Cheers.

This hand would have been easier for me to say weather I thought u made the wrong move or not if I new cash values rather than blinds bet but anyway in a cash game I would definitely say that your play was fine here because there are not many hands that you are behind in that position once you had raised that you couldn't call 22 more blinds with your straight draw once you had committed 18 with the raise. You had to call 22 bb to have a shot at some where around 100 and no mater what he had you had about 35% chance of making your straight which makes your pot odds great to make the call. In a tournament it's a little tougher to say. Kinda depends on if you're set on winning it or not. I probably would definitely call if it was early because I would want to win the tournament and an early double up would get my stack built to where I could start getting involved more and get ahead so that I could win. Where as if your someone who is just trying to make it to the money you have to think 65% of the time your tournament is basically over because you would be left with 5 big blinds if you miss. But all in all I like how you played the hand. I don't think I would have done much different but other things to keep in mind is what kind of player was the person making the raise? If they are very loose aggressive than that makes your call even easier. Anyways hope I could help.

I completely agree, KQ is not the best hand to start, especially when the blinds 300/600, as well as KJ KT, are lucky with the flop, but the turn and river ....