$4.40 NLHE MTT Turbo: Extracting max value with QQ overpair

B

bkkblues99

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Total posts
142
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 30/20/1.2

21 players remaining in a $4.40 6-Max Turbo. We are ITM. Playing 4 handed currently.


Poker Stars, $3.92 Buy-in (900/1,800 blinds, 225 ante) No Limit Hold'em


SB: 94,637 (52.6 bb)
Hero (BB): 120,749 (67.1 bb)
CO: 79,255 (44 bb) (30/20/1.2/F3B50 Hands-83)
BTN: 33,823 (18.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif

CO raises to 4,572, 2 folds, Hero raises to 12,600, CO calls 8,028

Flop: (27,000) J
club4.gif
6
club4.gif
5
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets 14,400, CO calls 14,400

Turn: (55,800) T
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets 61,380,




1. Preflop 3 Bet sizing? I felt it was OK.
2. Flop C-Bet sizing? Again I thought it was OK given Villain has a lot of JX (i.e AJ, KJ, J10 etc) in his range.
3. Turn bet? (Basically a pot bet which puts the villain all in). I think it was a bad bet. Because its hard for him to call with Any one pair hand now. He can only call if he caught the 10. At that moment I was blindly putting him on a J or a flush draw and wanted to charge him for it.


Did we lose value? What could we have done on the turn? 1/2 pot? maybe even check to induce a shove?

CO folds

Results: 55,800 pot
Final Board: J
club4.gif
6
club4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
heart4.gif

Hero mucked Q
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif
and won 55,800 (28,575 net)
CO mucked and lost (-27,225 net)



 
T

tim.kling.7

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
9
Chips
0
I dont think turn bet is terrible. The hands that may call smaller bets are hands that may already beat you (2 pair) and all their straight and/or flush draws.

By taking the larger sizing, you are enabling your opponent to make a mistake... to either fold his smallish 2 pair when he misreads this as a set, or making a bad call with his draws.

Because this is a turbo when you lose chips/decent sized pots at this stage it stings more than earlier in the MTT. This is another reason I dont mind the larger bet.

Not that many opponents at this buyin will understand, but your range is uncapped and could do this with all your sets, draws, overpairs, and bluffs--that's a lot of hand combos. Villain's accuracy of your hand strength would need to be spot on to make the call.
 
B

bkkblues99

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Total posts
142
Chips
0
I feel I may have made him fold JX (Most like a weak J like J9, J8) or a flush draw, so hindsight it seems to me that value was lost.
 
T

tim.kling.7

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
9
Chips
0
I feel I may have made him fold JX (Most like a weak J like J9, J8) or a flush draw, so hindsight it seems to me that value was lost.
And would we be talking about a bad beat if you gave him odds to call, and he spiked 2 pair?

Its a turbo bro
 
B

bkkblues99

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Total posts
142
Chips
0
I am not saying I would bet small. I am taking about a 50/60% bet. It's ok if he draws out after paying the wrong price. That's the price we have to pay sometimes by trying to extract max value.
 
Q

quant1986

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Total posts
599
Awards
1
Chips
2
I don't think turn bet is that terrible with 2 flush draws and 2 OESD possibilities. A/K/J/9/7/6/5/4 and any club/heart on the river could have crushed you.

If he has AJ, he could have called but KJ or lower he certainly fold.

You lose small value for excellent protection.
 
T

tim.kling.7

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
9
Chips
0
I don't think turn bet is that terrible with 2 flush draws and 2 OESD possibilities. A/K/J/9/7/6/5/4 and any club/heart on the river could have crushed you.

If he has AJ, he could have called but KJ or lower he certainly fold.

You lose small value for excellent protection.
This.

You post a hand because you want discussion and opinion. You get it... then argue that you like your idea better. Ok
 
ZenGreen

ZenGreen

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Total posts
607
Chips
0
Turn bet too big but right idea just do split it up and shove river.
 
DougPkrMonsta

DougPkrMonsta

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 7, 2016
Total posts
914
Awards
15
Chips
0
Pre-flop I'd go a little bigger being out of position - probably 3.5x their open.

You can size c-bet to set up turn shove (which is a fine play) OR since a lot of players will try to take the pot away on the turn (assuming you are giving up after c-betting), you can check turn and then shove over a bet.

Them checking back the turn is not a disaster since you got a three-bet in and decently sized flop bet... Good way to pick up chips, unless you are horrified of ever taking a bad beat (oh no the world is ending!) ;)

Not saying this is a great spot for it with a not-so-aggressive opponent, but by open-jamming the turn you force them to have something to call you and take away any chance of them bluffing/semi-bluffing. For what it's worth I doubt villain folded a jack here with all the draws out there and the stack sizes.

Good luck to you!
 
A

andreii955

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Total posts
447
Chips
0
I think you played exceptionally, he took the maximum value out of this hand on that flop it was hard to get all in, very good that bet.
 
FF2586

FF2586

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 31, 2018
Total posts
454
Awards
4
DZ
Chips
60
Hi there!
The turn bet is great I think. You really have to remeber that you have just a pair at this point, and you are outta position... and with the turn Th (Flush + straight draws) u shouldn't give him any good price!!
But still, If I were you, I woul've bet a little bit more preflop since I'm outta position, which will make me Cbetting bigger on the flop (exponnencially, not that your Cbet is bad, I would've bet the same if I made the same preflop 3bet) , which would make my turn bet all in a better price because it would be less and the pot would be more! if you get what I mean.

This is what I think would optimize your hand here. But your play was defenetly good! I think and I'm no pro

GG and GL
 
B

bkkblues99

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Total posts
142
Chips
0
Pre-flop I'd go a little bigger being out of position - probably 3.5x their open.

You can size c-bet to set up turn shove (which is a fine play) OR since a lot of players will try to take the pot away on the turn (assuming you are giving up after c-betting), you can check turn and then shove over a bet.

Them checking back the turn is not a disaster since you got a three-bet in and decently sized flop bet... Good way to pick up chips, unless you are horrified of ever taking a bad beat (oh no the world is ending!) ;)

Not saying this is a great spot for it with a not-so-aggressive opponent, but by open-jamming the turn you force them to have something to call you and take away any chance of them bluffing/semi-bluffing. For what it's worth I doubt villain folded a jack here with all the draws out there and the stack sizes.

Good luck to you!
GL to you too [emoji3]
 
B

bkkblues99

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Total posts
142
Chips
0
Hi there!
The turn bet is great I think. You really have to remeber that you have just a pair at this point, and you are outta position... and with the turn Th (Flush + straight draws) u shouldn't give him any good price!!
But still, If I were you, I woul've bet a little bit more preflop since I'm outta position, which will make me Cbetting bigger on the flop (exponnencially, not that your Cbet is bad, I would've bet the same if I made the same preflop 3bet) , which would make my turn bet all in a better price because it would be less and the pot would be more! if you get what I mean.

This is what I think would optimize your hand here. But your play was defenetly good! I think and I'm no pro

GG and GL
Yea the 3 bet might have been too small. Thanks for pointing that out.

GG & GL to you too! [emoji3]
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Total posts
920
Awards
2
KH
Chips
33
Preflop 3bet is ok, could be slightly bigger, especially from big blind.Flop bet is ok, could be bigger, because the board is very draw heavy.
Turn push is absolutely fine, villain has a lot of pair plus draw hands.
Overall well played.
 
Nathan Smith

Nathan Smith

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Total posts
224
Chips
0
Yes I agree that the turn bet is too big - one of those bets that will usually only be called by better. I would have bet on the bigger side - around 30/35K - giving the villain a bad price with his draws but keeping in his Jx hands.

Those posters that are saying that the turn bet is good protection are mistaken I think. A large bet can still protect without folding out JXx. You can't play poker being scared of being outdrawn, you just give your opponents the wrong odds to draw on you and be prepared to make folds when you are beaten.
 
E

Erase209

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Total posts
56
Chips
0
I agree that the turn bet is too big
 
B

bkkblues99

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Total posts
142
Chips
0
Yes I agree that the turn bet is too big - one of those bets that will usually only be called by better. I would have bet on the bigger side - around 30/35K - giving the villain a bad price with his draws but keeping in his Jx hands.

Those posters that are saying that the turn bet is good protection are mistaken I think. A large bet can still protect without folding out JXx. You can't play poker being scared of being outdrawn, you just give your opponents the wrong odds to draw on you and be prepared to make folds when you are beaten.
In hindsight, that is my conclusion as well. While we don't have a monster, I think we could have extracted more value from JX with a 2/3 or maybe even 1/2 pot bet on the turn. Heck, we could have even gone 3 streets of full value.

I wonder what I would have done after say 2/3 pot on the turn and V calls. Then if the flush misses, do we check (hoping he shoves his missed draw) or simply shove ourselves (I would probably do this). What about if the flush gets there? I think we probably check and maybe call anything from a 1/2 -2/3 pot and maybe fold to a shove. Not sure though.
 
G

Grearix

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Total posts
216
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 30/20/1.2

21 players remaining in a $4.40 6-Max Turbo. We are ITM. Playing 4 handed currently.


Poker Stars, $3.92 Buy-in (900/1,800 blinds, 225 ante) No Limit Hold'em


SB: 94,637 (52.6 bb)
Hero (BB): 120,749 (67.1 bb)
CO: 79,255 (44 bb) (30/20/1.2/F3B50 Hands-83)
BTN: 33,823 (18.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif

CO raises to 4,572, 2 folds, Hero raises to 12,600, CO calls 8,028

Flop: (27,000) J
club4.gif
6
club4.gif
5
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets 14,400, CO calls 14,400

Turn: (55,800) T
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets 61,380,




1. Preflop 3 Bet sizing? I felt it was OK.
2. Flop C-Bet sizing? Again I thought it was OK given Villain has a lot of JX (i.e AJ, KJ, J10 etc) in his range.
3. Turn bet? (Basically a pot bet which puts the villain all in). I think it was a bad bet. Because its hard for him to call with Any one pair hand now. He can only call if he caught the 10. At that moment I was blindly putting him on a J or a flush draw and wanted to charge him for it.


Did we lose value? What could we have done on the turn? 1/2 pot? maybe even check to induce a shove?

CO folds

Results: 55,800 pot
Final Board: J
club4.gif
6
club4.gif
5
heart4.gif
T
heart4.gif

Hero mucked Q
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif
and won 55,800 (28,575 net)
CO mucked and lost (-27,225 net)



Ok, so let's say you checked or bet 1/2 pot on the turn and CO checks or calls. On the river you get a club or 8, 9, J, K or A, he goes all-in, what do you do? I would have played it even stronger on the flop with a higher bet, but it came out well for you. You only strengthened your position in the tournament the way you played so I think it was the right thing to do, where did you end up by the way?
 
J

Jakobsladder

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Total posts
18
Chips
0
seems fine. I'd prob size up slightly more pre and more on the flop. turn jam standard.
 
Top