$4.4 NLHE MTT Turbo: Limping with speculative hands

Satiivas

Satiivas

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https://www.boomplayer.com/23890528_8D4CF222E7

This is the kind of a spot I have no concept of what is the correct play preflop.

Having K6o OOP is a terrible situation, but getting 7:1, is the limp justified?

And in general, what are the requirements of playing bad hands getting insane pot odds so that it would be profitable in the long run?
 
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ninoverm

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The main requirement in a spot like this I think is post-flop edge. If you think you play a lot better post-flop than your opponent(s), limping behind should be fine. Also worth to consider: how likely is it that BB will raise over the limp? Has he been doing this all the time?

It's a marginal spot with a bang average hand like K6o. If the points above are ticked the limp is fine imo.
 
Gabinho12345

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I think limping there is standard play. I would always limp with K6o in a situation like this.
 
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ninoverm

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I think limping there is standard play. I would always limp with K6o in a situation like this.

Definitely merit for this but you need to keep implied odds and reversed implied odds in mind. Hard to get paid off when you make anything worth value betting with K6 and hard to get away from king high boards where you could be dominated.
 
Figaroo2

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I fold and save my 1bb, if it was suited I might raise. If you want to limp there are better hands to do it with that can flop the nuts a lot easier. Sandwiched and oop K6os is hopeless.
 
akmost

akmost

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I prefer ''wasting'' my 1 bb with hands with more equity. K6 off and OOP is not one of them[K6s for instance is an easy limp with a passive player on the BB]. If you hit a K your kicker is too weak and that scenario maybe leads you to the disaster. The only combination it will pay you well is the 66x flop. It is like chasing ghosts.
 
Satiivas

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Well, technically you're wasting 0,5 BB as you can't get your posted SB back anyway. But thanks for the responses!
 
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trent32la

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Limping behind here is fine from the SB. I'd prefer to limp behind with K6o in the SB 3ways rather than 4ways+ where it is more likely someone has a dominate King.
 
mbrenneman0

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id say think of it this way, do you flop 2 pair or better and dodge flushes by the river 13.5% of the time or more? if yes, then this is a limp, if no, then youre wasting you big blind

i didnt watch the hand but figured out the preflop spot based on the thread.

in these spots its always good to think about what situations you can continue and what situations you cant continue. can you call a big bet oop on a KT9 flop here? probably not. can you call a big bet oop on a KT6 board? probably
 
Figaroo2

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K6

I've just been watching a hand review on Max Value.com by Rob Tinnion (twice winner of the Sunday Million)
Here he argued that the K6 suited on the button was a fold, there are just odds to call but his calculations showed it just a +45 chip scenario at best. He also argued that the chance of your King being dominated was too high. He advocates not limping oop without the initiative as generally its just bleeding chips, play in position with the initiative and avoid playing multiway pots as it just makes everything more difficult. (his parting shot "multiway pots suck, just avoid".)
As it happened the K6 limp called the SB raised all in and original limper had AK and had trapped.
I know the situations are slightly different but if this is a fold how can K6os in the SB be a complete?
 

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trent32la

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I know the situations are slightly different but if this is a fold how can K6os in the SB be a complete?
These situations are both completely different. In the K6s you posted, we are on the button facing 2 limpers, so the hand is going at least 4ways and is likely to go 5-ways. We are getting 5.5:1 on a call in this hand that will likely go 5ways. With K6o, we are getting 8:1 on a call going 3ways and are a lot less likely to be dominated vs 1 limp 3ways than 2 limps 5ways.
 
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Galeocerdo

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In my opinion, the deciding factors are mainly how aggro/passive the table is postflop, and of course whether the BB is likely to raise after you limp.

Basically you're looking to either flop 2p, 3oak, or check things down when you catch a K and then call a small steal attempt at the river.

None of those are likely of course, though I had almost this exact thing happen to me a couple days ago. Had K4o in the SB (getting similar odds), and managed to check the flopped K down to the river where I caught another one. I checked it and the button shoved ATo (for A high). That's about the best case scenario, and like I said, to me the decision comes down to how passive the table is and how good (which do corolate) of players they are.
 
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Mahsa dMo

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I would like to limp with hands that are more connected or suited or has a better kicker. (K9-10 e.g.)
If we hit our K we can go broke because of our kicker. I'm fine with getting it in with five card hand.
 
Figaroo2

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These situations are both completely different. In the K6s you posted, we are on the button facing 2 limpers, so the hand is going at least 4ways and is likely to go 5-ways. We are getting 5.5:1 on a call in this hand that will likely go 5ways. With K6o, we are getting 8:1 on a call going 3ways and are a lot less likely to be dominated vs 1 limp 3ways than 2 limps 5ways.
Yeah but the problems of domination, realising equity from oop and being raised from behind frequently, still exist in both. We look at the problems around playing weak/marginal hands from the blinds all the time in the polished poker thread as it's one of Johns bugbears, only very rarely does anything good come from it and rarely/never enough to make up for all the limps and calls its definitely a leak in all the 3 data sets posted recently. Looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Yeah but the problems of domination, realising equity from oop and being raised from behind frequently, still exist in both. We look at the problems around playing weak/marginal hands from the blinds all the time in the polished poker thread as it's one of Johns bugbears, only very rarely does anything good come from it and rarely/never enough to make up for all the limps and calls its definitely a leak in all the 3 data sets posted recently. Looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

yeah if those are on thin odds where your equity is likely to be denied then sure, you can bias towards a fold. but OP is getting insane odds, as long as you have the discipline to realize that a pair of kings is rarely good here then its extremely profitable to call. he's getting 8:1 he can afford to be denied equity on this spot and still profit on the all the times he flops 3 of a kind, two pair, nut flush draw... even on a K72rainbow or similar board he could sometimes check call one street to a reasonable sizing depending on villain temdencies.
 
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