$365 NLHE MTT: Turn TT into a bluff vs good player?

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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This is a wsop circuit $365 monsterstack event. We are still in the re-entry period.

Blinds just went up to 75/250/500. I have 29,000 (58bb).

Table is pretty passive and easy with just 1 guy who seems good and aggressive and he has about 35k. I’ve built from 20k to 29k without showdown or difficulty.

So I raise to 1,200 in EP wit h:10c4::10h4:

The good player is in CO and 3bets me to 4,000. Now he’s been 3betting quite a bit sometimes vs me usually vs other players. I’ve folded and flatted but I’ve yet to 4bet. Still….I feel this hand is too good vs his 3bet range to 4bet with cuz I’m essentially turning it into a bluff. So I flat. Everyone else folds

Pot 9,675 Flop :jh4::7h4::9s4:

All in all this seems like a pretty favorable flop for me vs an active player’s 3betting range. I’m pretty sure he would have just flatted me in position with all his low/middling pairs besides JJ so unless he’s got AJ/KJ or an overpair I’m in pretty good shape. Still, I see no choice besides checking.


He Cbets 5,100. I decide that’s too much of my stack to be able to comfortably just bluff catch/call down. There’s a ton of scary runouts where he can improve or bluff me. Ideally, I’d like to make a Jack fold and I’m pretty sure he’ll fold any Jack to my shove. I also feel reasonably sure he’ll fold heart draws (except big combo draws) and it’s possible he’ll even fold ANY 1 pair hands because I have a pot sized shove and he’s a good player who likely wants to look for easier spots. And my image is pretty tight. 77-JJ definitely make sense for me to have here. So I pull the trigger and jam for a total of 25,000 which is 19,900 more into a pot of 19,875.

He tanks forever and finally calls with :kh4::ks4: and I brick out.


So…in a vacuum I’m ok with this move. I think vs his range I’m doing fine and have so much fold equity (obviously since he almost folded KK).
I rarely make huge bluffs and when I do they work a really high % of the time.

My question is really about my strategy for this table/tournament. Since the table is easy and I’m having no problem making chips, should I really go to war with the only other good player in a spot like this?

If the answer is “no” then how should I proceed? Folding to his 3bet preflop seems crazy nitty. 4bet folding and 4bet calling both seem like Game Theory Disasters. So if I flat, do I just check/fold on a flop with 1 over? Or do I check/call and pray? Because I could easily end up pot committed and calling off my whole stack anyways. If that’s the case I think I’d rather shove with decent fold equity.
 
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Andrew Popov

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I think I was folding 3-bet preflop. If you are dealing with a really good player - your 1010 is already behind. Of course, your stack allows you to call and see the flop for luck. But your next game should be - check / fold, with the hope to get 8 and close the straight draw.

Having 1010 you should always consider the possibility of having a villain with an older pair on his hands or even a set.
 
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Folding to his 3bet preflop seems crazy nitty.

I agree with Andrew here about the fold. It's usually hard to know where you stand, pre- and post-flop, with TT. There is nothing crazy about folding it medium-stacked OOP against a good player. You don't have the implied odds to set-mine and you will almost inevitably be faced with difficult decisions post-flop.
 
thatguy6793

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I think calling the 3bet is a good move, but I wouldn't 4bet with TT against that particular player, and then check-fold post flop if you don't hit the set. You already have 58BB so you have the chips to play around with and since you did say the rest of the table isn't really that good I don't see why you couldn't make back the 4K in better situations against some of the lesser skilled players at the table. Calling and then check-folding gives you the opportunity to get a nice return if you win the hand, but it also protects your stack a lot if you miss on the flop and keeps you from getting pot committed early in the hand.
 
Jblocher1

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I agree with Andrew here about the fold. It's usually hard to know where you stand, pre- and post-flop, with TT. There is nothing crazy about folding it medium-stacked OOP against a good player. You don't have the implied odds to set-mine and you will almost inevitably be faced with difficult decisions post-flop.



Folding 1010 vs a 3 bet from a good aggressive player is really bad as they are 3 betting a wider range. Better to work on making better decisions in hard spots than avoiding them altogether
 
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Folding 1010 vs a 3 bet from a good aggressive player is really bad as they are 3 betting a wider range. Better to work on making better decisions in hard spots than avoiding them altogether

There are times when making difficult decisions in hard spots is the right thing to do. This doesn't sound to me like one of those times, based on the original post. Do you think the poster's concern in the quote below is valid? If not, why not?

My question is really about my strategy for this table/tournament. Since the table is easy and I’m having no problem making chips, should I really go to war with the only other good player in a spot like this?
 
Jblocher1

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There are times when making difficult decisions in hard spots is the right thing to do. This doesn't sound to me like one of those times, based on the original post. Do you think the poster's concern in the quote below is valid? If not, why not?



It's a question of whether we want to allow a good player to steamroll us just because they are better than other players at our table. Are we in love with playing 1010 OOP vs an aggro reg? Of course not, but are we getting exploited super hard by folding here? Yes definitely. I have hardly any live tourney experience as I play exclusively online, but calling and reevaluating on flop here is definitely not bad on a 50BB+ stack
 
playinggameswithu

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No tournaments are played defensively not offensively in general. Excluding late stage when no one is more than 25 BB deep. The all in shove screamed of a big draw to me. A lot of time a pot raise scares them even more than the all to common tournament all in.
 
playinggameswithu

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I would just move up the finishing places and avoid confrontation especially with the best player there.
 
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It's a question of whether we want to allow a good player to steamroll us just because they are better than other players at our table.

Is your answer to that question ever "Yes"? I think it should be sometimes.

Hero is probably ahead of villain's range.
But villain has position + initiative, and hero is essentially flipping a coin against most of villain's range. My ego would not want me to fold here, but my ego sucks at poker.

The problem with calling and evaluating on the flop is that the flop is likely to contain at least one overcard, and is unlikely to improve the hero's hand. A c-bet from the villain is likely.

In other words, the situation after an evaluation on the flop is likely to be the same as pre-flop: villain has position and initiative and it's very hard to tell where the hero stands.

If the villain is a 3-betting maniac then that's different, but that's not the way missjacki has described him.

My first preference would be to fold pre-flop, my second preference would be to 4-bet all-in pre-flop, even though it's a big overbet that is likely to only be called by AK and better pairs, and my third preference would be the way the hero played it.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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No tournaments are played defensively not offensively in general. Excluding late stage when no one is more than 25 BB deep. The all in shove screamed of a big draw to me. A lot of time a pot raise scares them even more than the all to common tournament all in.

I disagree with this general premise. my perspective is that poker (at least NLHE) should be played offensively. MTTs differ somewhat in that you have to protect/manage your stack and start to discount certain options/lines due to ICM. But that does not change the nature from offense to defense (another way of saying aggressive/passive).

I would just move up the finishing places and avoid confrontation especially with the best player there.

This can be useful later, like at a final table. But we're still in the rebuy period of a 500+ player MTT. surviving a little longer has essentially no value. (and in fact may result in a similar bustout spot later without the added ability to rebuy into a soft field).

Is your answer to that question ever

The problem with calling and evaluating on the flop is that the flop is likely to contain at least one overcard, and is unlikely to improve the hero's hand. A c-bet from the villain is likely.

In other words, the situation after an evaluation on the flop is likely to be the same as pre-flop: villain has position and initiative and it's very hard to tell where the hero stands.

This hand can't be played just for set mining. I have to be occasionally willing to evaluate the flop and just go with my hand for it's instrinsic value or else I should fold pre. and I think folding pre is a bad decision....I think 4bet shoving is a worse decision as we essentially force out the only parts of his range we are beating (AK/AQ) and value own ourselves. also known as "only get called when we are beat"

anyways....on certain flops I can happily just let this hand go. AKx or KQx or KJx etc. among all the possible flops this is one of the better flops for me. Not only does it only contain 1 over; but a J is a less dangerous overcard than A/K/Q. I also have flopped a gutshot which isn't fantastic but provides some additional outs for when I get looked up. I also block the nuts pretty hard.
 
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This hand can't be played just for set mining.

Yes, I noted this above.

I have to be occasionally willing to evaluate the flop and just go with my hand for it's instrinsic value or else I should fold pre.

I agree that if you are going to call you need to be aggressive on favorable flops.

and I think folding pre is a bad decision....I think 4bet shoving is a worse decision as we essentially force out the only parts of his range we are beating (AK/AQ) and value own ourselves. also known as "only get called when we are beat"

I'm not so sure that you fold out AK. Depends a lot on your table image. The advantage of a shove over a fold is that you usually gain chips on the hand, and have shown a willingness to defend. If you get called by JJ+ it's probably time to say goodbye, but that will often be true if you just call too.
The advantage of a shove over a call is that you are un-bluffable, you have stood up to the frequent 3-better, you will see all streets and can therefore make a set on the turn or river, weaker hands fold pre-flop and cannot suck you out, and you may still be ahead of much of the villain's range if he calls (AK).
I am not advocating a shove here, but I think it's a better plan then a call.


anyways....on certain flops I can happily just let this hand go. AKx or KQx or KJx etc. among all the possible flops this is one of the better flops for me. Not only does it only contain 1 over; but a J is a less dangerous overcard than A/K/Q. I also have flopped a gutshot which isn't fantastic but provides some additional outs for when I get looked up. I also block the nuts pretty hard.

Yes, it was a good flop, relatively speaking. I think you played well post-flop.
 
Bozovicdj

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First off, I think this is a really trick hand, and you probably could have taken several different lines both pre and post flop.
Pre flop:
The good player is in CO and 3bets me to 4,000. Now he’s been 3betting quite a bit sometimes vs me usually vs other players. I’ve folded and flatted but I’ve yet to 4bet. Still….I feel this hand is too good vs his 3bet range to 4bet with cuz I’m essentially turning it into a bluff. So I flat. Everyone else folds
Considering he is 3betting a lot as you said, that really widens his range so I will assume that he is doing that with AT+ maybe pocket pairs 88, 99. Against a 4bet those hands fold, while QQ+ probably shoves all in. That being said, it should be fine for you to 4 bet here or fold, but calling is not really something I would opt for. There are too many bad flops for you that he can just c-bet bluff on, also if he had you beat pre flop, then it is just a suicide for you if some 3 rainbow low cards hit the flop.
Post flop:
Extremely tough one. In villains 3-bet pre flop range is definitely a J as well as over pairs. That being said you are probably behind but still have a gutshot, therefore it is fine to just flat, and hope for a miracle 8 or T. Folding imo is not an option on this board, considering villain is C-betting here with AK, AQ...
You opted for a shove, and to be honest, I don't see a hand worse then what you have that can call, and I don't really see him getting bluffed and folding AJ or better. That being said, I don't think I would ever shove in this spot.

Few things to add:
If you are dealing with a really good player - your 1010 is already behind.
I am pretty sure that the hero meant that Villain is good at exploiting the table that is quite passive, rather then: he is good = 3bet means he has a monster and pocket T is behind.

My first preference would be to fold pre-flop, my second preference would be to 4-bet all-in pre-flop, even though it's a big overbet that is likely to only be called by AK and better pairs, and my third preference would be the way the hero played it.
I have to say I would opt for a 4bet pre flop (not a shove, maybe a bet in the vicinity of 10K which would be around a pot size bet), then opt for a fold, and on the 3rd one we agree.

If the villain really is 3-betting a lot pre flop, then folding isn't really the best option for TT here imo. but also, flatting simply doesn't get information about villains hand that are kinda necessary to know what to do on the flop.

As for the original question, it shouldn't matter if the villain is good player or not, you should always try and play your game, your strategy. I might suggest getting away from players in later stages of the tournament when you and supposed villain are both among the chip leaders. But in this particular situation and the early period of the tournament, I don't mind getting clinched here and there :)
 
playinggameswithu

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It could also have likely been as case of "I got Kings or Aces and I am not folding no matter what."
 
Jacki Burkhart

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It could also have likely been as case of "I got Kings or Aces and I am not folding no matter what."

It could be. That would mean he’s a newish or Rec player who overvalues his hands which would make my read on him completely wrong. I read him as a good player. But my reads have been wrong before.

In this spot think my read was good though because he tanked for so long I was sure he’d fold. I kept expecting someone at the table to call a clock. After about 3 minutes he laughed and said “pretty soon I’m gomna call the clock on myself”. Then took about 2 more minutes before sigh calling while saying “I guess I call. Nice hand”
 
playinggameswithu

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It could be. That would mean he’s a newish or Rec player who overvalues his hands which would make my read on him completely wrong. I read him as a good player. But my reads have been wrong before.

In this spot think my read was good though because he tanked for so long I was sure he’d fold. I kept expecting someone at the table to call a clock. After about 3 minutes he laughed and said “pretty soon I’m gomna call the clock on myself”. Then took about 2 more minutes before sigh calling while saying “I guess I call. Nice hand”

Sounds like it was. Because he called convinced he was defeated.
 
liuouhgkres

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Preflop is call is correct, you absolutely can not fold TT against agressive player. You have lower pairs, and weaker hands like Ax and Kx that you will fold, TT is out of equation. On the flop the correct move is to call and I think it is not very difficult spot. You don't want to bluff with TT here, because you have a lot of other hands to bluff with, like flush draws, maybe some weak straight draws like KQ. Also TT has showdown value, you beat AK, AQ, KQ that he might 3-bet and c-bet. Call flop and re-evaluate on the turn.
 
eidikos

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hi!
well played!
i play exactly the same there
you have a good hand,there is a folding equity and you have outs for the nut straight
besides its still the re entry period and players are more aggressive there...
 
Ryan Laplante

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This is a WSOP circuit $365 monsterstack event. We are still in the re-entry period.

Blinds just went up to 75/250/500. I have 29,000 (58bb).

Table is pretty passive and easy with just 1 guy who seems good and aggressive and he has about 35k. I’ve built from 20k to 29k without showdown or difficulty.

So I raise to 1,200 in EP wit h:10c4::10h4:

The good player is in CO and 3bets me to 4,000. Now he’s been 3betting quite a bit sometimes vs me usually vs other players. I’ve folded and flatted but I’ve yet to 4bet. Still….I feel this hand is too good vs his 3bet range to 4bet with cuz I’m essentially turning it into a bluff. So I flat. Everyone else folds

Pot 9,675 Flop :jh4::7h4::9s4:

All in all this seems like a pretty favorable flop for me vs an active player’s 3betting range. I’m pretty sure he would have just flatted me in position with all his low/middling pairs besides JJ so unless he’s got AJ/KJ or an overpair I’m in pretty good shape. Still, I see no choice besides checking.


He Cbets 5,100. I decide that’s too much of my stack to be able to comfortably just bluff catch/call down. There’s a ton of scary runouts where he can improve or bluff me. Ideally, I’d like to make a Jack fold and I’m pretty sure he’ll fold any Jack to my shove. I also feel reasonably sure he’ll fold heart draws (except big combo draws) and it’s possible he’ll even fold ANY 1 pair hands because I have a pot sized shove and he’s a good player who likely wants to look for easier spots. And my image is pretty tight. 77-JJ definitely make sense for me to have here. So I pull the trigger and jam for a total of 25,000 which is 19,900 more into a pot of 19,875.

He tanks forever and finally calls with :kh4::ks4: and I brick out.


So…in a vacuum I’m ok with this move. I think vs his range I’m doing fine and have so much fold equity (obviously since he almost folded KK).
I rarely make huge bluffs and when I do they work a really high % of the time.

My question is really about my strategy for this table/tournament. Since the table is easy and I’m having no problem making chips, should I really go to war with the only other good player in a spot like this?

If the answer is “no” then how should I proceed? Folding to his 3bet preflop seems crazy nitty. 4bet folding and 4bet calling both seem like Game Theory Disasters. So if I flat, do I just check/fold on a flop with 1 over? Or do I check/call and pray? Because I could easily end up pot committed and calling off my whole stack anyways. If that’s the case I think I’d rather shove with decent fold equity.
I think you played this well.

I disagree with your assessment on what they will call with though.

Id never expect villain to fold a J or A Flushdraw.

That being said, I still like your play.
 
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