$300 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Bounty Turbo: Live Deep Turbo Bounty - 200bb turn shove

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uavissar

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2nd or 3rd orbit. As its deep we start with 350bb. All players have similar stacks.

UTG+1 opens to 7BB. 2nd time he's done this. One hand earlier he 3bets pre and folds turn.
I'm UTG + 2 with KcJd. I 3bet to 18bb.
SB calls. UTG+1 calls.
SB is a cash player. Crazy range. Been in a final with him where he called 3bet OOP with 10s2c...

Flop- KdKh8d (55BB)
SB checks
UTG+1 bets 42bb.
I call (mistake?)
SB reraise to 158bb.
UTG+1 folds.
I call (mistake?)

Turn- 9D (Board - KdKh8d9d) (~420bb)
SB shoves the rest of his chips, I cover him by several hundred.

Call or fold?
 
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nucl

nucl

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Wow that's a crazy pot.

First of all you should throw away KJo in my opinion because someone could wake up with a monster.

Lets see small blind calling range here.
It's possible he is flatting all 22 through 10 10 here since you are so deep, and he is going for set minig.We can eliminate AK hands because he is goning to 4bet it most of the time.So we have AQs,AJs,sometimes ATs,KQs(witch you are blocking the K).

Now UTG+1 range can assume that it's very wide and AK KQ are in his range.

The call on the flop is correct imo, but I like shoving also because it looks weaker.

The 3bet from the small blind on the flop in two opponents looks like a monster(don't forget you said that he's crazy)
So he's 3betting range is reduced to KXs pocket 88 and sometimes,a small possibility of him having a flush draw.
So you are losing only by KQs and 88.

So for me the correct play is to shove over his 3bet(calling is too obvious) or fold,but there are not too many hands that beat you and you beat so many hands.

So my play will be calling on the flop the UTG+1 and shoving SM 3bet.

If somebody has a different opinion he can tell us and improve our game 🤔
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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I don't mind the 3bet pre. it's optional but if you feel like you have a strong postflop game KJo in this spot is 3b or fold.

obviously if we are gonna 3b KJo then this is one of the best flops for us. we would expect to hear from AK preflop quite often (not always). We have to be willing to play for stacks on this flop, IMO. if you're somehow beat it's just a cooler. GG.

so....after being check raised by SB I would just get it in on flop to charge the FDs the max and this move is even better considering you described him as crazy. yeah he can have 88 or KQ but there aren't very many combos of those compared with combos of flushdraws and worse kings. He's gonna think his Kx is good right?

as played....this turn is tough cuz theres not much that you're beating. BUT....he is described as kinda crazy and could potentially hold Kx or A8 with the Ad. or a pocket pair between 99-QQ. those are really thin but possible. You also block the flush with your Jd which isn't a huge factor but can matter in close spots. Would he just jam turn like this with a flush? the board is paired. (edit to add: yes he would cuz of stack to pot ratio)

For me, it would come down to the bounty structure. if you don't cover him this is an easy fold. since you do cover it depends on how big the boutny is compared to the total buy in. When you're behind, you're never drawing dead here. if he has 88 you've got 3 jacks 3 9s and 1 king for 7 outs (15%). If he has AK or KQ you've got 3 jacks to win and 3 8s and 3 9s to chop (9 outs to at least chop so 18%). when he has a flush you've got 1 K, 3 8s, 3 9s, 3 Jacks to boat for 10 outs (20%).

assuming you've got 174bb left and with his bet pot has 594bb your pot odds are 3.4:1. you need 22.7% equity to have a breakeven call (in a cash spot) which you probably don't have. But with the bounty equity it tips the scales. Also, the earlier in the tourney the more the bounty matters and the less your tourney life or ICM matters.

I'm probably calling if bounty is like 1/3 of total buy in or more. I expect to bust a lot or very occasionally have a bounty and a huge stack.
 
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uavissar

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Wow that's a crazy pot.

First of all you should throw away KJo in my opinion because someone could wake up with a monster.

Lets see small blind calling range here.
It's possible he is flatting all 22 through 10 10 here since you are so deep, and he is going for set minig.We can eliminate AK hands because he is goning to 4bet it most of the time.So we have AQs,AJs,sometimes ATs,KQs(witch you are blocking the K).

Now UTG+1 range can assume that it's very wide and AK KQ are in his range.

The call on the flop is correct imo, but I like shoving also because it looks weaker.

The 3bet from the small blind on the flop in two opponents looks like a monster(don't forget you said that he's crazy)
So he's 3betting range is reduced to KXs pocket 88 and sometimes,a small possibility of him having a flush draw.
So you are losing only by KQs and 88.

So for me the correct play is to shove over his 3bet(calling is too obvious) or fold,but there are not too many hands that beat you and you beat so many hands.

So my play will be calling on the flop the UTG+1 and shoving SM 3bet.

If somebody has a different opinion he can tell us and improve our game 🤔

- Crazy hand indeed. Hence I've posted it here :)
- Small can flat literally any two cards. We are deep. Cash player.
- I completely disagree with a small chance for flush draw. I think this is a classic spot, especially at this depth.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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another reason I favor the jam on the flop is that you cover him and so aggressively attacking stacks you cover when you're the aggressor is the nuts in bounty tourneys, IMO. given his large 3bet size you don't have any fold equity with a flop shove...but just in general if I cover them I'd rather jam on them when bounties are in play.

edit to add: also if you fold here on this turn you have no bounty equity in future spots at this table as you'll be covered by everyone. I forgot about that so with that thought I'm basically always calling here in a bounty tournament. It doesn't matter the bounty size.
 
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uavissar

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I don't mind the 3bet pre. it's optional but if you feel like you have a strong postflop game KJo in this spot is 3b or fold.

obviously if we are gonna 3b KJo then this is one of the best flops for us. we would expect to hear from AK preflop quite often (not always). We have to be willing to play for stacks on this flop, IMO. if you're somehow beat it's just a cooler. GG.

so....after being check raised by SB I would just get it in on flop to charge the FDs the max and this move is even better considering you described him as crazy. yeah he can have 88 or KQ but there aren't very many combos of those compared with combos of flushdraws and worse kings. He's gonna think his Kx is good right?

as played....this turn is tough cuz theres not much that you're beating. BUT....he is described as kinda crazy and could potentially hold Kx or A8 with the Ad. or a pocket pair between 99-QQ. those are really thin but possible. You also block the flush with your Jd which isn't a huge factor but can matter in close spots. Would he just jam turn like this with a flush? the board is paired.

For me, it would come down to the bounty structure. if you don't cover him this is an easy fold. since you do cover it depends on how big the boutny is compared to the total buy in. When you're behind, you're never drawing dead here. if he has 88 you've got 3 jacks 3 9s and 1 king for 7 outs (15%). If he has AK or KQ you've got 3 jacks to win and 3 8s and 3 9s to chop (9 outs to at least chop so 18%). when he has a flush you've got 1 K, 3 8s, 3 9s, 3 Jacks to boat for 10 outs (20%).

assuming you've got 174bb left iand with his bet pot has 594bb your pot odds are 3.4 : 1. you need 22.7% equity to have a breakeven call which you probably don't have. But with the bounty equity it tips the scales. also, the earlier in the tourney the more the bounty matters and the less your tourney life matters.

I'm probably calling if bounty is like 1/3 of total buy in or more. I expect to bust a lot or have a bounty and a huge stack occasionally.

- seriously shoving a billion BB on the flop on his 3bet? why not wait for the turn? (which was my plan- was going to go over whatever he bets, except shove....and he shoved :) )
- I was doing similar math in my head and sadly no, the bounty was only $50. Though as I mentioned I did cover him. I took all the time I could to run the math.

I'll share results once we got some more opinions.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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- seriously shoving a billion BB on the flop on his 3bet? why not wait for the turn? (which was my plan- was going to go over whatever he bets, except shove....and he shoved :) )
- I was doing similar math in my head and sadly no, the bounty was only $50. Though as I mentioned I did cover him. I took all the time I could to run the math.

I'll share results once we got some more opinions.

I see your point. I do. it's a gross spot. But if you're going to take the optional and higher variance line of 3b KJo preflop, then you have to be willing to suck it up and stack off when you smash the flop esp vs a spewy player. Also, it's not a billion bb anymore; given the action to this point you've already got a big chunk of your stack in the middle. (21%). so you can just fold and wait for a better spot (why did you 3b KJo then?) or you can play for stacks. at least that's my opinion.

Flatting the flop isn't the worst because it keeps his range as wide as possible, but it HAS to be with the intention of calling/jamming all turns because of stack to pot ratio once you call on flop is even tinier. I know SPR is more of a cash game concept....but also when you are playing 350bb effective cash strategies matter more and more. DID you flat the flop so you cold fold if a flush draw came in? Or did you flat the flop to let the crazy guy continue to spew? if it's the first one....just keep it simple and get it in on flop. if it's the 2nd one then there's no decision.

edit to add: BTW...im sitting here behind my keyboard acting like I could think all this through at the table. :laugh: Like I would automatically know the pot size and the SPR and would have already known what I would do on various turns. In reality, if I don't jam flop I'm probably just sitting here on turn agonizing just like you. I'd probably tank so long I got the clock called then I'd crying call hoping for board to pair. but this is why we analyze these spots away from the table. so that when we come across similar spots in the future we already have some of the mental gymnastics figure out and we know which factors to consider.
 
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playinggameswithu

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KJs or KJo is a super reverse implied odds hand. I'v learned my lesson I don't even play it HU cash game let alone 3 bet with it.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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KJs or KJo is a super reverse implied odds hand. I'v learned my lesson I don't even play it HU cash game let alone 3 bet with it.


cool. wanna play HU cash with me? :laugh:
 
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I see your point. I do. it's a gross spot. But if you're going to take the optional and higher variance line of 3b KJo preflop, then you have to be willing to suck it up and stack off when you smash the flop esp vs a spewy player. Also, it's not a billion bb anymore; given the action to this point you've already got a big chunk of your stack in the middle. (21%). so you can just fold and wait for a better spot (why did you 3b KJo then?) or you can play for stacks. at least that's my opinion.

Flatting the flop isn't the worst because it keeps his range as wide as possible, but it HAS to be with the intention of calling/jamming all turns because of stack to pot ratio once you call on flop is even tinier. I know SPR is more of a cash game concept....but also when you are playing 350bb effective cash strategies matter more and more.

There is no "Thank you" or "Like" button :) So thank you!

My intention on the turn was to call or shove myself. The only thing I didn't expect is a snap shove. Never saw ANYONE take this line without the absolute nuts and as you said- what hands to I beat here? ( hands that call pre, 3bet squeeze OOP flop and shove turn ).

Taking into account I think I'm better post flop than most at that tourney and that its the beginning of the tourney, I folded, while showing the K.

SB shows As9s :eek:
 
Jacki Burkhart

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There is no "Thank you" or "Like" button :) So thank you!

My intention on the turn was to call or shove myself. The only thing I didn't expect is a snap shove. Never saw ANYONE take this line without the absolute nuts and as you said- what hands to I beat here? ( hands that call pre, 3bet squeeze OOP flop and shove turn ).

Taking into account I think I'm better post flop than most at that tourney and that its the beginning of the tourney, I folded, while showing the K.

SB shows As9s :eek:

Gross! A9! who does that? but at least he taught you a lesson about bounties. this is where doing the work away from the table will pay off. I agree you don't beat much except weird bluffs and worse Kx (not many of those). In a cash game you can just fold here and if he bluffed you, good for him cuz you're gonna snap him on enough turns that you'll make money by folding here.

this is where understanding the dynamics of bounty tourneys becomes useful. as with ANY tourney chip accumulation is important and so it's generally worth while to take risks early to make a pile, and you don't start protecting your tourney life until later. This is amplified in the bounty structure because a portion of the prize pool is available to you immediately (unlike surviving past the bubble in regular tourneys). so you've got all the regular tourney value of making a big stack PLUS the bounty value of earning some cash immediately.

but the part to not underestimate is that in bounties you need to always be aware of which stacks you cover and each decision you make you have to think "what happens if I fold after this? how many stacks at my table will I cover?" if putting in chips in a certain spot will dip you below a stack where now you don't cover anyone or you only cover 1 or 2 people....then you SHOULDN'T put those chips in without a strong chance of winning the pot.

Obviously the more stacks you cover, the greater your overall equity in the tourney. so by folding turn you're going to be shut out of ALL bounty equity for a LONG time (you'll be covered by everyone until you double). By calling and winning you'll cover EVERYONE for a long time so you'll have more bounty equity available to you than almost anyone else in the tourney for many levels.

so while your post flop skills may be greater than your opponents and that would often merit a tight fold here in regular tourneys...in a bounty that is outweighed by being covered by everyone. Everyone will want to be in pots with YOU cuz they can get your bounty cheaper than anyone else. you'll get looked up light. you'll get jammed on light. you just won't have as much maneuverability in using your post flop edge due to stack distributions. it isn't fun being the short stack at the table in a bounty tourney. ask me how I know! :)

ok...you twisted my arm I'll tell: I was short stacked this june at wsop $1,500 bounty with Shaun Deeb at my table. it wasn't fun. I even managed to double thru him....guess what? I didn't get any bounties and he got several. He gets it. attack the short stacks. I learned a lot by watching him play.
 
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nucl

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I folded, while showing the K.

SB shows As9s :eek:

LUL

That guy has some balls here playing that hand OOP:eek:

Netherless, as we mentioned you shouldn't fold there.
Yes is scary, yes is a gross spot, yes is a 300$ MTT but you know the guy.CG players tend to be more LAG than MTT and that guy is loco.
I hope this hand to be a good lesson for you and for all of us :icon_stud

Good luck at future tables mate :beer:
 
nucl

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I was short stacked this june at WSOP $1,500 bounty with Shaun Deeb at my table. it wasn't fun. I even managed to double thru him....guess what? I didn't get any bounties and he got several. He gets it. attack the short stacks. I learned a lot by watching him play.

Wow that was a hell of stress.

Could you please share with us the pressure at the table or you last hand?
I hope your last hand was the winning hand of the tourney.

Thanks in advance :D
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Wow that was a hell of stress.

Could you please share with us the pressure at the table or you last hand?
I hope your last hand was the winning hand of the tourney.

Thanks in advance :D

well I don't think most people felt that much pressure at the table...just me cuz i was the shorty. :)

basically think of a normal "steal" spot where you'd raise CO or button with a reasonable hand. you expect X% of folds from the blinds. when you're the shorty they basically never fold. they wanna play pots with you and get your bounty for cheap. even though my bounty is still worth $500, it will only cost them 3,500 chips unlike the 8,000 chips it will cost from other players. Everytime you open you get called, often in multiple spots cuz everyone wants a crack at busting the short stack. It's great for getting action....but in tourney poker we don't have a ton of time to wait for nutted hands so you want some fold equity most the time and you just don't have it.

The hand I doubled thru Shaun Deeb he opened in EP a player called and I jammed SB with QQ. He iso jammed (to isolate short stack bounty equity) other player folded. Shaun rolled over 8d9d and I held.

Later the Button Opened I had AQo and 27bb in SB and I jammed (I know this seems like a lot to jam...but remember what I said about getting looked up light and not having time to wait for nutted hands....) He insta called with AKo board was no help and I gathered my things for the walk of shame.

It was fun though. My table had lots of fun people from lots of countries and I survived 2 all ins but both times I was covered. :( I played about 4 hours and learned a lot.
 
nucl

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That was fun indeed as you said and a pretty good experience.
Do you have a strategy when you are short stacked in a bounty tournament or we should open a new thread? :)

I hope next time hunt and collect them bootys :ridinghor
 
Jacki Burkhart

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That was fun indeed as you said and a pretty good experience.
Do you have a strategy when you are short stacked in a bounty tournament or we should open a new thread? :)

I hope next time hunt and collect them bootys :ridinghor

somebody can speak up if we're hijacking this thread too much and we'll move...but it's related to the OP, IMO since we're talking bounty strategy in a bounty hand analysis.

anways...yes I had a strategy for playing short. I don't know if it was a good strategy but basically I was just opening a tighter range with bigger sizings to increase my fold equity (ex. 3.5x instead of 2.5x) and value jamming at a bigger stack size than I normally would. the AQ hand is a good example.
 
mbrenneman0

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2nd or 3rd orbit. As its deep we start with 350bb. All players have similar stacks.

UTG+1 opens to 7BB. 2nd time he's done this. (that really doesnt mean anything to us unless we've seen what he's done it with) One hand earlier he 3bets pre and folds turn.
I'm UTG + 2 with KcJd. I 3bet to 18bb.

I'm not at all a fan of 3betting the kind of player that would open to 7bb with as wide of a range as KQo. I like 3betting KQo, but only if we can expect UTG+1 to have a few folds in his range... Maybe he does, but youre sizing is too small and you're never going to get any fold equity with that sizing. If you are going to 3bet, id prefer making it 3 to 3.5 times the size of his raise

SB calls. UTG+1 calls.
SB is a cash player. Crazy range. Been in a final with him where he called 3bet OOP with 10s2c... I'm sure you have more information than I do, but to me,
I dont know the situation, so I'm not going to make a read off of it. I can think of a few situations where calling a 3bet OOP w/T2o would actually have some merit... SB vs BB deepstacked and BB has a small 3bet sizing for example


Flop- KdKh8d (55BB)
nice flop :cool:
SB checks
UTG+1 bets 42bb.
I call (mistake?)
why would calling be a mistake? we want max value and we dont want either player to fold at this point.
SB reraise to 158bb. - wut :eek: id be peeing myself
UTG+1 folds.
I call (mistake?)
this is probably a mistake if you consider your goal... atleast hopefully its your goal... with this type of hand is to extract maximum value. he's priced in and never ever folding to a raise at this point. put all of the chips in the middle


Turn- 9D (Board - KdKh8d9d) (~420bb)
SB shoves the rest of his chips, I cover him by several hundred.

Call or fold?
youre getting about 1:5, if he does this with AA, QQ JJ TT KJ, KT, or weird bluffs etc even 20% of the time, then you cant fold at this point... idk about you but im just not good enough to fold here. I dont even think he has the flush all that often, why would he raise to such an awkward sizing with a flush draw? his sizing to me looks more like a value bet with a made hand on the flop that was planning on shoving turns.... maybe he has a flush 60 to 70% of the time? idk, just estimating, but definitely not 100%


My commentary in red ^^^


EDIT: woops, idk why i read KQ, i just realized it was KJ. KJ is just a fold pre IMO... I like 3betting with KJ, but it has even less value than KQ so it relies on fold equity even more. IMO people who open UTG to 7bb, just dont fold that often, otherwise the rest of my commentary
 
mbrenneman0

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You also block the flush with your Jd which isn't a huge factor but can matter in close spots.

Actually, that Jd blocker is pretty significant, i didnt think about it, but you bring up a good point with the blocker... i mean, think about what flush draws SB has? I'd actually give a lot of suited connectors and suited one gappers to SBs range. he cant have AKdd, he cant have KQdd, he cant have QJdd he can have JTdd, he cant have T9dd (now that we know the turn), he cant have 98dd, right? like the only flush draws he can really have here is AQdd which probably would have 3bet pre, QTdd, or he can have ATdd, or maybe A2-5dd

that jack removes a ton of flush draws from his range, it think its a much more significant blocker than a Qd or a 10d would be
 
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