$3 NLHE STT: QQ vs. 2 shoves 6max

alienat3d · May 2, 2017

Was there any chance to fold that you think?

888 Poker - 75/150 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 1,920 (VPIP: 12.24, PFR: 9.57, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, hands: 99)
BB: 1,033 (VPIP: 8.74, PFR: 9.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 103)
UTG: 2,071 (VPIP: 17.07, PFR: 12.20, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
Hero (MP): 3,209
CO: 1,080 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 41)
BTN: 4,187 (VPIP: 63.41, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)

6 players post ante of 15, SB posts SB 75, BB posts BB 150

Pre Flop: (pot: 315) Hero has Q♦ Q♠

UTG raises to 350, Hero raises to 1,000, fold, BTN raises to 4,172 and is all-in, fold, fold, UTG calls 1,706 and is all-in, Hero calls 2,194 and is all-in

Flop: (8,759, 3 players) T♠ 4♥ 5♣

Turn: (8,759, 3 players) 8♠

River: (8,759, 3 players) 4♣

UTG shows K♥ K♠ (Two Pair, Kings and Fours)

Main Pot [6,483]: (Pre 18%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)

Hero shows Q♦ Q♠ (Two Pair, Queens and Fours)

Main Pot [6,483]: (Pre 15%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Side Pot#1 [2,276]: (Pre 19%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)

BTN shows A♦ A♥ (Two Pair, Aces and Fours)

Main Pot [6,483]: (Pre 67%, Flop 83%, Turn 90%)
Side Pot#1 [2,276]: (Pre 81%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)

BTN wins 6,483
BTN wins 2,276

Gerb · May 2, 2017

Folding QQ for 2200 into a 6500 pot? Not a chance. You only need 20% equity against the entire range to make that call. Sure, sometimes you'll be beat, but they'll show up with A10s+, AJo, 1010+ enough that you definitely have the odds to call. Unless you know either of them are the tightest players at $3 level tourny's, you crush their ranges. Just unlucky this time.

alienat3d · May 2, 2017

Gerb said:
Folding QQ for 2200 into a 6500 pot? Not a chance. You only need 20% equity against the entire range to make that call. Sure, sometimes you'll be beat, but they'll show up with A10s+, AJo, 1010+ enough that you definitely have the odds to call. Unless you know either of them are the tightest players at $3 level tourny's, you crush their ranges. Just unlucky this time.

Hey thanks for your opinion, m8! Honestly i tending to share it, but after that sick cooler without cashing, although i had second big stack i was thinking about, was it really that smart to call Queens against two shoves, when blinds were getting high and there are 2 shorties, who are probably soon out.. And in that hand likely one of them is about to be broke too. That's why i have created this hand analyze thread, you know.

Gerb · May 3, 2017

alienat3d said:
Hey thanks for your opinion, m8! Honestly i tending to share it, but after that sick cooler without cashing, although i had second big stack i was thinking about, was it really that smart to call Queens against two shoves, when blinds were getting high and there are 2 shorties, who are probably soon out.. And in that hand likely one of them is about to be broke too. That's why i have created this hand analyze thread, you know.

Ok, so thinking about getting to the money is important, but you're still way too far away here. First of all, is it a 6 max tourny, or did it start at 9 or 10 and now you're down to 6? How many people cash? I'm assuming that 3 or fewer people cash, as this is a STT. With 3 people still to bust out, you can't fold your way into the money. If you were on the actual bubble with 1 person to go, then maybe, but even then I'd say you're missing a big opportunity to pick up a huge stack.

The buttons stats are outrageous. 63/0/0 is so lose/crazy but passive at the same time I dont know what to think when he jams. If you had 500 hands on him and you saw that he only ever raised with AA,KK or AK, then that might make a difference , but with 40 hands it's sort of tough to commit to that assumption.

I put it into ICMizer, and even if we narrow the buttons range to 1010+, AQo+, AJs+, it's still an easy shove.

mbrenneman0 · May 3, 2017

with these stack depths, id rather 3bet jam rather than call a 4bet jam, but thats nitpicking... any way you can get this all in pre with less than 30bb is +EV. no, there is no folding here.

Malnitruth · May 3, 2017

What hand did UTG have?

mbrenneman0 · May 3, 2017

Malnitruth said:
What hand did UTG have?

it shows if you click "click to reveal" in the original post

ph_il · May 4, 2017

3bet shove pre w/ ~20 BBs.

trent32la · May 4, 2017

ohshootmybad said:
3bet shove pre w/ ~20 BBs.

Agree. Villain's stack size does not give us room to 3B/fold, especially as he is opening a little over 2.3x and you are 3Bing 2.85x his raise size. In other words, you do not have any 3B bluffs here so off 21bb it is best to reshove your entire range and possibly flat the top (KK+). If you had a larger stack and players behind did as well, you could justify 3Bing to your size so V can't flat.

peeetiee · May 4, 2017

HI !!
OUch! That hurts.
I try not to go ai with only a pair. It´s the smallest count, I think U can bet on it but not risk your tournament life. Especially not pre flop. And even more especially near the bubble.
In my opinion PP is speculative.There´s only 2 outs to improve plus 4-card flush. So try to get to the flop as cheap as possible and then raise.
I would have guessed you´d lost against A4.
Let´s look at the situation: U have 20 BB+, no need to hurry
The Hand: UTG makes OR 3BB. Well, according to poker school this is a monster raise, so AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AQs.
With QQ U can only improve by Q, 2 outs. (plus 4 card flush, but with this OR U have to expect Ax, no good for your Q as high card in flush)
So I only would have called.
And it´s better to create value. Cause SB might call, BB might call, Co might call 3BB, but seldom 9BB. U represent monster, scary...
So if U are in front U will be most times after flop as well. Especially cause BB and CO have less than 10 BB, and will play wider ranges, but not pay that much. Maybe BTN would´nt have gone ai, and do so after flop. Would U still have called ai?
But never mind loosing with QQ against AA, I had to take my worst bad beat ever:9 seat MTT, stacks about 30 BB. QQ poket, I raise 4BB, 3calls.
Flop 3d 5h 9d I think: enough money, raise 10 BB, fold, fold, reraise another 2 BB all in. I call these 2BB and he shows 7s 2d.WTF??? I can´t believe it, am happy and have to take Ad and 10d. Now THAT hurts. People were giving me names, like bad beat pete and so on. damn.

mbrenneman0 · May 4, 2017

peeetiee said:
HI !!
OUch! That hurts.
I try not to go ai with only a pair. It´s the smallest count, I think U can bet on it but not risk your tournament life. Especially not pre flop. And even more especially near the bubble.
In my opinion PP is speculative.There´s only 2 outs to improve plus 4-card flush. So try to get to the flop as cheap as possible and then raise.
I would have guessed you´d lost against A4.
Let´s look at the situation: U have 20 BB+, no need to hurry
The Hand: UTG makes OR 3BB. Well, according to poker school this is a monster raise, so AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AQs.
With QQ U can only improve by Q, 2 outs. (plus 4 card flush, but with this OR U have to expect Ax, no good for your Q as high card in flush)
So I only would have called.
And it´s better to create value. Cause SB might call, BB might call, Co might call 3BB, but seldom 9BB. U represent monster, scary...
So if U are in front U will be most times after flop as well. Especially cause BB and CO have less than 10 BB, and will play wider ranges, but not pay that much. Maybe BTN would´nt have gone ai, and do so after flop. Would U still have called ai?
But never mind loosing with QQ against AA, I had to take my worst bad beat ever:9 seat MTT, stacks about 30 BB. QQ poket, I raise 4BB, 3calls.
Flop 3d 5h 9d I think: enough money, raise 10 BB, fold, fold, reraise another 2 BB all in. I call these 2BB and he shows 7s 2d.WTF??? I can´t believe it, am happy and have to take Ad and 10d. Now THAT hurts. People were giving me names, like bad beat pete and so on. damn.

theres only two possible hands that are better than QQ, im not sure wha you mean by "only pocket pair" this hand is very very strong preflop.

also the range you assign to UTG is way too tight.

you have a good thought, but it doesnt apply here because we get the most value by raising all in preflop and counting on villain to miss the board. the fact that both of the only two hands that beat QQ preflop were dealt is just bad luck.

Dwarf · May 5, 2017

mbrenneman0 said:
theres only two possible hands that are better than QQ, im not sure wha you mean by "only pocket pair" this hand is very very strong preflop.

also the range you assign to UTG is way too tight.

you have a good thought, but it doesnt apply here because we get the most value by raising all in preflop and counting on villain to miss the board. the fact that both of the only two hands that beat QQ preflop were dealt is just bad luck.

Id say this is an interesting thought - pre flop is not the river, obviously, but seldom do you go all in with 1 pair on the river and it generally is a bluff then.

Perhaps Austrian poker school is a lot like The Austrian School of Economics, concepts described now seem baffling, but in a few hundred years will become the norm.

mbrenneman0 · May 5, 2017

Its the idea of getting youre money in when youre ahead. even if you play postflop amd a king comes out, you might still have the best hand, but youre much less likely to get paid, like wise we wouldnt bet on a board with an ace and a king even if we have the best hand we know that only better hands call us on that board. most of the time, all you have to do is dodge two cards with pocket queens if you go all in pre

Shumkoolie · May 5, 2017

Gerb said:
Folding QQ for 2200 into a 6500 pot? Not a chance. You only need 20% equity against the entire range to make that call. Sure, sometimes you'll be beat, but they'll show up with A10s+, AJo, 1010+ enough that you definitely have the odds to call. Unless you know either of them are the tightest players at $3 level tourny's, you crush their ranges. Just unlucky this time.

I agree 100% with Gerb here. If ICM is not a consideration here, then you make this call as it is profitable in the long-term. Button's VPIP of 63 tells me that this person is on some kind of heater, and honestly, a weak player, somebody that if you see flops, should be able to outplay most of the time. However, that wasn't an option here in this situation, and I think the play was fine.

xkenjix · May 8, 2017

alienat3d said:
Hey thanks for your opinion, m8! Honestly i tending to share it, but after that sick cooler without cashing, although i had second big stack i was thinking about, was it really that smart to call Queens against two shoves, when blinds were getting high and there are 2 shorties, who are probably soon out.. And in that hand likely one of them is about to be broke too. That's why i have created this hand analyze thread, you know.

this, they show up with AA, KK such a small amount of time, Lots of A-q(even tho you have QQ), A-j, 99+

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$3 NLHE STT: QQ vs. 2 shoves 6max

alienat3d

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Gerb

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alienat3d

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Gerb

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mbrenneman0

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Malnitruth

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mbrenneman0

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ph_il

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trent32la

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peeetiee

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mbrenneman0

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Dwarf

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