$3 NLHE MTT: Interesting Turn spot with KK

A

awesome

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Villain is a serial limper with a 33/0.

I iso'd him with KK. Nothing too crazy here.

Here's the preflop action.

ame started at: 2017/6/29 9:28:4
Game ID: 946997588 20/40 $1,000 GTD, Table 8 (Hold'em)
Seat 9 is the button
Seat 1: Shovardar (4900).
Seat 2: tingz814 (2376).
Seat 3: wryaholic (4960).
Seat 4: shlyahovsky (3377).
Seat 5: chupacabraX (5299).
Seat 6: Villain (3440).
Seat 7: HERO (2895).
Seat 8: KingKulina (3965).
Seat 9: mony70 (9860).
Player Shovardar has small blind (20)
Player tingz814 has big blind (40)
Player HERO received card: [Ks]
Player HERO received card: [Kc]
Player wryaholic folds
Player shlyahovsky folds
Player chupacabraX folds
Player Villain calls (40)
Player HERO raises (160)
Player KingKulina folds
Player mony70 folds
Player Shovardar folds
Player tingz814 folds
Player Villain calls (120)

The flop is pretty standard although it can be argued that I should bet larger than half pot but its marginal. Villain obliged with a call.

*** FLOP ***: [7c 7h 8d]
Player Villain checks
Player HERO bets (190)
Player Villain calls (190)

The turn is where it gets interesting. Worst card in the deck and V checks.

*** TURN ***: [7c 7h 8d] [Ac]
Player Villain checks

Do you continue to bet here? or try to get to showdown and/or bet river if checked to?
 
Figaroo2

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I used to worry in this spot but once you understand the equity its not particularly tricky, On the equity we are miles ahead 70/30 and I'd just keep betting here and fold to a raise. His limp calling range is going to be very wide and you are ahead most of the time. The turn is where you are going to extract the most value from the hand as once the draws miss you won't get much on the river.
When he calls on the flop he's most likely to be drawing around the flop with middling cards. Pairs 55 66 77 88 99 and 56s 67s 78s 89s 9Ts TJs and some A6s A7s A8s A9s and if he's really wide pre flop then a whole bunch of suited gappers. 57 68 79 8T J9 . If you know from observations he's that wide you are 2-1 fav here and should always be betting the turn. The ace won't stop him drawing to a strong hand and yes he'll have some Ax suited but not enough to stop me betting.
River cards I'd be hoping for a 2,3 7 JQKA and fire a small value bet, anything else I'd probably check it down in case he's looking to raise. The worst cards would be middling clubs 5689T but my equity calculator still shows us with around 50% equity against those.
So bet turn and if he checks river fire small on good river bricks looking for calls from 2nd pair....if he bets river into you are usually beaten..
 
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oakthyago

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has was already said, for a limp range you would expect a suit conector a small/medium pocket pair. I don't know if I would limp Ax... probable a bluff raise trying to steal the blinds nothing pretty exciting. I think you are ahead of his range.

He can be playing a trap as well, that kind of ready will depend of the reading that you already have about the villain. I would like you to put all the information of the hand.
 
S

Supmargy

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I used to worry in this spot but once you understand the equity its not particularly tricky, On the equity we are miles ahead 70/30 and I'd just keep betting here and fold to a raise. His limp calling range is going to be very wide and you are ahead most of the time. The turn is where you are going to extract the most value from the hand as once the draws miss you won't get much on the river.
When he calls on the flop he's most likely to be drawing around the flop with middling cards. Pairs 55 66 77 88 99 and 56s 67s 78s 89s 9Ts TJs and some A6s A7s A8s A9s and if he's really wide pre flop then a whole bunch of suited gappers. 57 68 79 8T J9 . If you know from observations he's that wide you are 2-1 fav here and should always be betting the turn. The ace won't stop him drawing to a strong hand and yes he'll have some Ax suited but not enough to stop me betting.
River cards I'd be hoping for a 2,3 7 JQKA and fire a small value bet, anything else I'd probably check it down in case he's looking to raise. The worst cards would be middling clubs 5689T but my equity calculator still shows us with around 50% equity against those.
So bet turn and if he checks river fire small on good river bricks looking for calls from 2nd pair....if he bets river into you are usually beaten..
Is there a reason why you don't put TT, JJ or even QQ in the opponents hand range? Should they have played more aggressively for you to put those in the range? It would still make sense for him to bet with his assumed top pair.
And I've heard of people limping preflop with a strong pocket pair. Even though it doesn't happen often.
 
Figaroo2

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Is there a reason why you don't put TT, JJ or even QQ in the opponents hand range? Should they have played more aggressively for you to put those in the range? It would still make sense for him to bet with his assumed top pair.
And I've heard of people limping preflop with a strong pocket pair. Even though it doesn't happen often.

Sure those hands TT-QQ might be there but its unlikely and its only 18 combos, which is a small part of the range I'd give a player like this. It makes no real difference to the equity and as you can see from the calc against a reasonable range calling the flop we are 70+% equity and should be betting both flop and turn for value. If you add in AA our equity drops but only to 69% so even if you think he's the sort of guy that limp calls aces we should still be betting.
I also later added in J8s T7s 96s 85s 74s and the equity doesn't change but now we are getting to hands you won't see limp call much.
I also used to not like seeing the ace come on the turn here just like the original poster but it by no means the worst card in the deck and you have to think about and visualise the whole calling range to understand you are well ahead and should be betting.
 
Figaroo2

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equity in KK spot

there you go.:)
 

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M

marnburger

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Figaroo2 has pretty much nailed this but I'll add an extra thought.

I don't like the A because when you bet again it folds out a lot of hands that you are beating. You have a lot of aces in your range so much scarier for villain, puts a lot of pressure on pocket pairs and draws which is pretty much all of their range.
I'm really torn between checking to keep in that range and betting to charge the draws with a lot of equity. You need to take your open range, then work out what is your c-betting range on that flop, then see where KK sits as a check behind or a second barrel. This could be a good hand to strengthen your checking range.
 
mbrenneman0

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Figaroo2 has pretty much nailed this but I'll add an extra thought.

I don't like the A because when you bet again it folds out a lot of hands that you are beating. You have a lot of aces in your range so much scarier for villain, puts a lot of pressure on pocket pairs and draws which is pretty much all of their range.
I'm really torn between checking to keep in that range and betting to charge the draws with a lot of equity. You need to take your open range, then work out what is your c-betting range on that flop, then see where KK sits as a check behind or a second barrel. This could be a good hand to strengthen your checking range.

thats a good point. personally id bet turn and check back river. i think all his one pair hands will call a turn bet, but after he calls the turn our equity is significantly reduced.
 
Figaroo2

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I don't have a checking range on the turn here, it's a 3$ MTT, you won't see the players again, maybe in a cash game with regulars but even then I'd still be betting to balance the times I'm barreling my air..
Limp callers don't tend to be aggressive players, if you give a free card on the turn you are allowing a passive player to realise his equity for no charge. I'd consider it a sin to give a free card here to the amount of draws that are out there.
The point it that good draws will call over the odds here regardless of the Ace as the draws are usually strong enough to beat a pair of aces and if his draws miss on the end you aren't getting any more value unless he bluffs and you decide to call. It's not a good board for him to bluff either as you will have pair of aces here a lot. If he leads into on the end he probably has you beat.
 
Q

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Honestly you can go both ways. I don't think that turn is that bad especially to continue betting.
 
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Mahsa dMo

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Villain is a limper so we can not narrow down his range. You can't put him on A and slow down just because A rolled off. I would bet bet bet all the streets.
 
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marnburger

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One of my notes is to not worry so much about being balanced in these stakes. You're right about them not having many bluffs here, unlikely for someone this passive to bluff as well.
I was thinking about this though, how many hands do we have on villain? He's 100% limping right, so if they are truly limping the top % of hands it changes our equity quite a lot. I don't think it's likely they are limping KK+, AJs+, AQo+ and KQs as that is pretty terrible, but it's technically what the stats say. Add these in and we're below 60% equity.
Also looking at the range again a lot of the hands are pair + SD combos which are now just pairs with the ace turn, so have been denied a bunch of equity. I'm still liking a check here then call any river, being a bit wary of big leads when a 9 or club comes and bet when check to. I'm just not convinced our hand will win betting and being called on all 3 streets.
 
A

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Not a great turn card for my specific hand but for my range, we are fine.
I bet half pot again on the turn with the view to check all non-K rivers.

V ripped into me at this point. Tough for V to have a bluff at this point but would appreciate feedback.

Player HERO bets (380)
Player Villain allin (3090)
 
mbrenneman0

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Not a great turn card for my specific hand but for my range, we are fine.
I bet half pot again on the turn with the view to check all non-K rivers.

V ripped into me at this point. Tough for V to have a bluff at this point but would appreciate feedback.

Player HERO bets (380)
Player Villain allin (3090)

yeah, sucks, but we have to let it go here.

the very worst hand he has here is Ax when he shoves... he could be semi bluffing with some flushdraws, but i doubt it and even if he is, his range still has too much equity
 
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