$3.30 NLHE MTT: $$3.30 NLHE MTT: $$3.30 NLHE MTT: Interesting Spot With A Draw On An FT

What should I do on the flop? (I've included all options :P)

  • Check Fold

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Check call and check fold if he bets again on bad turns, then evaluate the river if he checks

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Check call and lead some good turns as a bluff

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lead the flop, fold to a shove

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Check shove

    Votes: 2 100.0%

  • Total voters
    2
SaintNick1968

SaintNick1968

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$3.30 NLHE MTT: $$3.30 NLHE MTT: $$3.30 NLHE MTT: Interesting Spot With A Draw On An FT

Hi guys,

I recently played a Win The Button $3.30 tourney and reached the final table. At this stage there were six people left and I had by far the shortest stack. The villain was playing agressive and he had C-Bet every flop so far to put pressure on people with ICM, but he seemed to be playing decently. Do I want to shove and just accept that villain will call with a lot of hands because I have a lot of draws in my range or do I want to float and see which turns I can bluff on? I think I might have made an error in this hand but I'm not sure, so I'd like some other people's opinion :)

pokerstars Hand #165697369170: Tournament #1805425756, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXIII (4500/9000) - 2017/02/05 1:11:36 WET [2017/02/04 20:11:36 ET]
Table '1805425756 11' 9-max Seat #2 is the button (won the previous hand)
Seat 1: kaktuc63 (507894 in chips)
Seat 2: zhuravec (709786 in chips)
Seat 6: Georg1926 (249052 in chips)
Seat 7: saintnick1968 (126153 in chips)
Seat 8: malek6666 (288767 in chips)
Seat 9: camelot1988 (443348 in chips)
kaktuc63: posts the ante 1125
zhuravec: posts the ante 1125
Georg1926: posts the ante 1125
saintnick1968: posts the ante 1125
malek6666: posts the ante 1125
camelot1988: posts the ante 1125
Georg1926: posts small blind 4500
saintnick1968: posts big blind 9000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to saintnick1968 [9h Td]
malek6666: folds
camelot1988: folds
kaktuc63: folds
zhuravec: raises 9000 to 18000
Georg1926: folds
saintnick1968: calls 9000
*** FLOP *** [Kd 7c 8c]
saintnick1968: checks
zhuravec: bets 23625
saintnick1968: raises 83403 to 107028 and is all-in

Thanks!
Nick :)
 
N

ninoverm

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Yep, I like shoving here. Your equity combined with your fold equity is enough to make this a profitable shove, and there's no ICM considerations as you are by far the shortest stack. If you call and he keeps barreling away you're forced to fold, and leave yourself with an even more awkward 9 BB stack.
 
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Vzan23

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When you play that hand and hit an open ended with a 10bb stack your decision is pretty easy... check / shove or lead shove both make sense...
 
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Vzan23

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When you play that hand and hit an open ended with a 10bb stack your decision is pretty easy... check / shove or lead shove both make sense...



*10bbs = 13bbs
Pretty much the same, if there were other shorties you might just call and play turns... but this was by far your best option to ladder up
 
SaintNick1968

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I did shove in the end but I do think that I probably don't have much fold equity in this situation, especially with the potential flush draw... that was my only thought.
 
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ninoverm

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I did shove in the end but I do think that I probably don't have much fold equity in this situation, especially with the potential flush draw... that was my only thought.

Why not? You were saying the villain was putting the pressure on the shorties. He can barrel with a lot of air that he has to fold to your shove.
 
EvertonGirl

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This is an easy check shove IMO, as you say villain is acting like a bully putting pressure on people.
 
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trent32la

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Easy check shove on this flop. If villain was over opening pre then shoving pre here is an option.
 
SaintNick1968

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Okay thanks for the comments. Good to know that I couldn't have avoided busting this hand. Villain snapped me off with a weak king and I didn't hit. I wondered if leading the flop and folding to a jam would have been better, maybe he folds a lot of his air that way and I could more safely fold to a jam knowing that I couldn't have that much equity. This is probably better though. Anyhow, I cashed for $80 so it was a decent win anyway :)
Thanks ;)
 
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ninoverm

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Nah, you can't lead out-fold here. Check-shove is perfectly fine, just unlucky not to hit.
 
mbrenneman0

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tbh i prefer folding pre, but as played check-shove is fine.
 
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ninoverm

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tbh i prefer folding pre, but as played check-shove is fine.

Looking at a flop from the big blind for a minraise with T9o is perfectly fine imo, even with 14 bigs. If you catch a decent enough piece you can go with it, and the 1 BB isn't that much of a hit to your stack compared with what you can win.
 
mbrenneman0

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Looking at a flop from the big blind for a minraise with T9o is perfectly fine imo, even with 14 bigs. If you catch a decent enough piece you can go with it, and the 1 BB isn't that much of a hit to your stack compared with what you can win.

how often do you hit the flop and how often do you get paid when you do(implied odds)?
 
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trent32la

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tbh i prefer folding pre, but as played check-shove is fine.
You would be giving up a lot of EV by folding T9o preflop in this spot, especially against a button minraise. At this stack depth we are also less likely to make mistakes postflop, as if we connect with the board decently, we can x/shove and if we whiff, we can x/f and only lost 1bb more.
 
mbrenneman0

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You would be giving up a lot of EV by folding T9o preflop in this spot, especially against a button minraise. At this stack depth we are also less likely to make mistakes postflop, as if we connect with the board decently, we can x/shove and if we whiff, we can x/f and only lost 1bb more.

im thinking of it as that 1 bb being worth a lot more as a short stack than it would be as a deep stack. that 1 bb could be extra fold equity later when we need it, or an extra big blind in the pot when we go all in and get called with a good hand
 
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ninoverm

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im thinking of it as that 1 bb being worth a lot more as a short stack than it would be as a deep stack. that 1 bb could be extra fold equity later when we need it, or an extra big blind in the pot when we go all in and get called with a good hand

And I see the 4 big blinds that are already in the pot being worth a lot more as a short stack than the 1 big blind we have to call here.
 
mbrenneman0

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what flops are you going to continue on? if you flop second pair are you going to continue? what if you flop bottom pair? you only flop top pair 11.6% of the time and an OESD 9.7% of the time, and those are really the only flop textures that you can realistically hope to see and continue on, so you're only seeing a favorable flop 25% of the time. you're actually better off shoving pre than flatting because lets say he's an average player, he's folding half his range here (roughly 50% FE) and even if he calls you with an 8% range, you're still at 32% equity against that range.

with 14 big blinds you need to be playing push-fold.


DQ0f92L.png
 
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ninoverm

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what flops are you going to continue on? if you flop second pair are you going to continue? what if you flop bottom pair? you only flop top pair 11.6% of the time and an OESD 9.7% of the time, and those are really the only flop textures that you can realistically hope to see and continue on, so you're only seeing a favorable flop 25% of the time. you're actually better off shoving pre than flatting because lets say he's an average player, he's folding half his range here (roughly 50% FE) and even if he calls you with an 8% range, you're still at 32% equity against that range.

with 14 big blinds you need to be playing push-fold.


DQ0f92L.png

You're considering your opponent will hit and/or c-bet every single time. Which isn't the case. Even if you don't hit, you might be able to take away the pot on later streets.

I agree you generally need to be playing push-fold with 14 bigs, but if you're in the big blind you can definitely make exceptions.
 
mbrenneman0

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dont forget your playing out of position.. your full showdown equity is never realized when you have the potential to make mistakes postflop
 
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ninoverm

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But if you don't make mistakes, this is a perfectly fine call. Why would you make a mistake to prevent making mistakes?
 
SaintNick1968

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Interesting comments- thanks guys. Personally I don't see a problem with the flat pre. I do understand that the game becomes more push/fold based with 14BB, and flatting is less good than if I had more. If it had been 10BB then that's different, but I think that the decision to call was not a mistake. I'm not entirely certain, but I assume that shoving would probably net me chips (and of course there is very little ICM pressure on me with this stack) but I still think that flatting with this hand is better.

As for on the flop, I think that I am very happy to continue almost all the time I flop a decent piece, and I was in no way planning to just fold or check call my straight draw, but the flush draw and overcard made it more scary. Anyway, I don't think that I messed up too bad in this hand- it's just good to be able to clarify that my play on the flop was completely standard. :)
 
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trent32la

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Fwiw off 10bb here, I'm much more likely to flat call a wider range from the BB against a button minraise. Reason being we are getting 4:1 on a call and it's going to be very easy to play anything half decent on the flop. Off 14bb we still have fold equity on a rejam and are playing with a higher SPR postflop, obviously.

If we hit any sort of equity (even a gutter and the board isn't totals crap), then we can lead out shove the flop. If we hit the flop hard, then we can x/jam and if we whiff then we can x/f.

Flatting off a short stack in the BB has huge advantages because we end up putting the button in a lot of shitty spots because of a low SPR and he will whiff the flop extremely often, esp with his weak Ax hands (large portion of his opening range) and small pairs and can't do anything when we shove and he whiffs.
 
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