$3.3 NLHE MTT: Fold AQ on river vs Aggressive player

D

daniel888

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Total posts
513
Awards
2
Chips
57
[url=https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/7a2Jdtfs]Replay this hand on CardsChat[/URL]

UTG: 28,550 (48 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 42,060 (70 bb)
MP: 25,520 (43 bb)
MP+1: 27,200 (45 bb)
CO: 56,250 (94 bb)
BU: 30,060 (50 bb)
SB: 35,810 (60 bb)
BB: 14,500 (24 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,380) Hero is UTG+1 with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to 1,600, 3 players fold, BTN calls 1,600, 2 players fold

Flop: (4,580) T 6 4 (2 players)
Hero raises to 3,000, BTN calls 3,000

Turn: (10,580) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN raises to 7,200, Hero calls 7,200

River: (24,980) 5 (2 players)
BTN raises to 18,200 (all-in), UTG+1 (Hero) folds

Total pot: 24,980
BU wins 24,980

I don't have much information about the button player. I just know he likes to see flops and plays aggressively at post-flop when he have position. Do you think folding AQ (with Qd) on river is too tight? And do you think I should bet on turn instead of checking against kind of this player?
 
P

ph_il

...
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Total posts
10,128
Awards
1
Chips
25
i'm definitely betting the ace on the turn.

not only does it pair your hand, but you also have the queen of diamond as added equity. if your opponent has a weaker ace, they're calling and if they have a diamond draw, they're calling as well. there is also some straight draws that are on the flop and hit the turn as well. so, when you have a big hand w/ a big redraw, you want to get paid by weaker hands or weaker draws as well.

is the turn check bad? not necessarily if you were planning on going for a check raise and calling it off a jam when there is a 2.5 effective spr. however, on draw heavy boards like this, it's better to bet out instead of letting your opponent see a river for cheap.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
Preflop
You opened for 2,6X, which I think is fine with these stack sizes. A bit less would also be fine.

Flop
Here I want to have some information about the Villain like his fold to C-bet and his agression factor, which I get from my HUD. Depending on the Villain type your hand is either a small C-bet of half pot or less or its a check-call. I dont like your very large C-bet. Especially when you are going to not call down with top pair, then you are almost just building the pot up for him, so he can bluff you out of a big pot later.

Turn
I prefer to bet again for value especially when you hold Qd. Not only does this card block some of his flushes, it also gives you equity when you are behind to anything but a K high flush. A bet can certainly get called by worse, and it also allow you to determine the price and try to stay away from stacking off with just top pair. This would especially be the case if you had bet smaller on the flop.

River
As played I think, you have to call here at least against an aggressive opponent. You still have a relevant blocker, and he could even be doing this with a worse hand like AJ thinking, its for value. The stack to pot ratio was a little deep for stacking off top pair, but this boils back to, why I prefer a smaller sizing on the flop.
 
Q

QA77

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Total posts
504
Awards
1
Chips
3
I would bet less on the flop. Check calling the turn is fine. You beat a lot of hands and because you checked the A, button might use it to bluff. I would call off here a lot against an aggressive player. Against a tighter player, I would lean towards folding.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,265
Awards
1
Chips
262
You beat a lot of hands and because you checked the A, button might use it to bluff.


This is exactly the point. When Hero bet large on the flop but check the turn his hand look like JJ-KK hating the turn card or maybe AX with a bad kicker checking for pot control. So Heros hand is underrepped and in that situation you basically always have to call down against aggressive players.

In this spot it is also important, that Villain called from BTN. A lot of regulars tend to overuse position by calling a lot of junk from BTN simply because they have position postflop. And part of that plan is to float the flop a lot and try to take away later. And you just can not allow that to take place, when you have something as strong as top pair second kicker.

Realistically what does Hero even lose to here? Its basically 9 combos of flopped sets, 6 combos of AT, and then a few combos of flushes like KdJd, Jd9d and 9d8d. But if Villain can have ATo or Jd9d, then he can also have a shit-load of other hands, that he is turning into a bluff, simply because Hero checked and "LOL I have position".
 
3

300HPGOD

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Total posts
1,466
Awards
11
Chips
117
Preflop
You opened for 2,6X, which I think is fine with these stack sizes. A bit less would also be fine.

Flop
Here I want to have some information about the Villain like his fold to C-bet and his agression factor, which I get from my HUD. Depending on the Villain type your hand is either a small C-bet of half pot or less or its a check-call. I dont like your very large C-bet. Especially when you are going to not call down with top pair, then you are almost just building the pot up for him, so he can bluff you out of a big pot later.

Turn
I prefer to bet again for value especially when you hold Qd. Not only does this card block some of his flushes, it also gives you equity when you are behind to anything but a K high flush. A bet can certainly get called by worse, and it also allow you to determine the price and try to stay away from stacking off with just top pair. This would especially be the case if you had bet smaller on the flop.

River
As played I think, you have to call here at least against an aggressive opponent. You still have a relevant blocker, and he could even be doing this with a worse hand like AJ thinking, its for value. The stack to pot ratio was a little deep for stacking off top pair, but this boils back to, why I prefer a smaller sizing on the flop.


100% agree with the above in its entirety for every street including pre flop. The river is a call even though I am not in love with it but we are still beating a lot and the Q of diamonds is very significant as it takes away some diamond broadway cards that we fear he could get to this point with. The board has the Ace of diamonds so that removes villain Ax diamonds combos (which usually makes up a lot of a flush draw range) and we have the Q of diamonds removing even more combos. With the 10 of diamonds on the board that really only leaves KJ in his diamonds calling range with an outside chance of J9, 98, and 87. I think his flush chances are minimal here and more likely has Ax. He could have an Ax that spiked two pair but that I would take that chance with a call. I would also be discounting AK too since it is mentioned that villain is aggressive and I would have expected a 3 bet from that holding.
 
erik_lima

erik_lima

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 31, 2020
Total posts
225
Chips
60
It's hard to answer without much information about the opponent.

I think pre flop you could bet a little less.

On flop I think the continuation bet size with this board is not good. I would bet the most like 50% of the pot. After his call of this strong bet you made, he seems to have a really good hand (unless if he used to call a lot of cbets, and if this is his profile the cbet on this board would not be good).

On turn, if you think he calls a lot of cbets and you think you have a better hand you could bet or check raise.

Like I said, this hand you need to know better the profile of your opponent.
 
S

scubed

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Total posts
818
Awards
1
Chips
1
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/7a2JdtfoReplay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 28,550 (48 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 42,060 (70 bb)
MP: 25,520 (43 bb)
MP+1: 27,200 (45 bb)
CO: 56,250 (94 bb)
BU: 30,060 (50 bb)
SB: 35,810 (60 bb)
BB: 14,500 (24 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,380) Hero is UTG+1 with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to 1,600, 3 players fold, BTN calls 1,600, 2 players fold

Flop: (4,580) T 6 4 (2 players)
Hero raises to 3,000, BTN calls 3,000

Turn: (10,580) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN raises to 7,200, Hero calls 7,200

River: (24,980) 5 (2 players)
BTN raises to 18,200 (all-in), UTG+1 (Hero) folds

Total pot: 24,980
BU wins 24,980

I don't have much information about the button player. I just know he likes to see flops and plays aggressively at post-flop when he have position. Do you think folding AQ (with Qd) on river is too tight? And do you think I should bet on turn instead of checking against kind of this player?
Yes, I think folding the river is too tight. Hero's check-call on the turn is a mistake I think. Why lead flop to then check-call turn? Perhaps a check-raise all-in could be considered? I think when Hero check-calls the turn then the river is a call.
 
D

daniel888

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Total posts
513
Awards
2
Chips
57
Hi,

Thank you for your opinions.

This is a very difficult situation for me, I thought for a long time before I decided to fold here. His big bet on river means he has a very strong hand or a bluff. So I don't feel with AJ he will bet here. His hand range on river would be:
- A flush KdJd, Jd9d, Jd8d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 8d7d
- A set TT, 66, 44, (in case he didn't want to control the pot and knew I didn't have a flush when I checked on turn. Yes, it's a mistake that I should bet on turn. Although I feel I would have to fold if he reraised all-in because there're not many bluffs here except AJ, KdQ, KdJ, Kd9 -his value range is two pair set or flush, betting on turn to protect my hand is still a better choice)
- Bluffs: KdQ, KdJ, Kd9, Jd9, Jd9, Jd8, 98, 97, 87
- Mid pairs likes 99, 88, or XT, AJ would check on river because he had showdown value. Two pairs likes AT, A6s, A4s could bet or check.

With all of the things, I think calling and folding is a 50/50 situation. However it was the first time I've seen him raise all in, so I was not sure and decided to fold. Though I still feel it's ok. From all your comments, I think the mistakes I made here is that I bet large on flop (it made me very struggle on the later streets) and didn't bet on turn to value or protect my hand enough.
 
Last edited:
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,598
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
Hi,

Thank you for your opinions.

This is a very difficult situation for me, I thought for a long time before I decided to fold here. His big bet on river means he has a very strong hand or a bluff. So I don't feel with AJ he will bet here. His hand range on river would be:
- A flush KdJd, Jd9d, Jd8d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 8d7d
- A set TT, 66, 44, (in case he didn't want to control the pot and knew I didn't have a flush when I checked on turn. Yes, it's a mistake that I should bet on turn. Although I feel I would have to fold if he reraised all-in because there're not many bluffs here except AJ, KdQ, KdJ, Kd9 -his value range is two pair set or flush, betting on turn to protect my hand is still a better choice)
- Bluffs: KdQ, KdJ, Kd9, Jd9, Jd9, Jd8, 98, 97, 87
- Mid pairs likes 99, 88, or XT, AJ would check on river because he had showdown value. Two pairs likes AT, A6s, A4s could bet or check.

With all of the things, I think calling and folding is a 50/50 situation. However it was the first time I've seen him raise all in, so I was not sure and decided to fold. Though I still feel it's ok. From all your comments, I think the mistakes I made here is that I bet large on flop (it made me very struggle on the later streets) and didn't bet on turn to value or protect my hand enough.


I think because you've under-repped your hand by so much here, you need to call.

It's a perfect spot for villain to bet any wiffed draws.
 
U

UkoChebuko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Total posts
381
Chips
0
I will do the same. Well played imo. I can't see enough bluffs and weaker hands OTR. Easy fold...However, you must consider for other options OTF vs loose-aggro player. Check-fold, check-call or even check-raise. Depends on his size and tendencies. Check-shove OTT is also an option. But this is only "some things" to think about. Your play is pretty normal, OK...
 
1

1player2

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Total posts
365
Chips
0
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 28,550 (48 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 42,060 (70 bb)
MP: 25,520 (43 bb)
MP+1: 27,200 (45 bb)
CO: 56,250 (94 bb)
BU: 30,060 (50 bb)
SB: 35,810 (60 bb)
BB: 14,500 (24 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,380) Hero is UTG+1 with A Q
1 fold, Hero raises to 1,600, 3 players fold, BTN calls 1,600, 2 players fold

Flop: (4,580) T 6 4 (2 players)
Hero raises to 3,000, BTN calls 3,000

Turn: (10,580) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN raises to 7,200, Hero calls 7,200

River: (24,980) 5 (2 players)
BTN raises to 18,200 (all-in), UTG+1 (Hero) folds

Total pot: 24,980
BU wins 24,980

I don't have much information about the button player. I just know he likes to see flops and plays aggressively at post-flop when he have position. Do you think folding AQ (with Qd) on river is too tight? And do you think I should bet on turn instead of checking against kind of this player?


Hello,

Yes I believe going all in on the turn would be the ideal play here. Your hand has showdown value as well as the 2nd nut flush draw. When you check the turn your opponent will assume you are trapping or most likely scared of the 3rd diamond. When you don't check raise his turn bet and you elect to just call and then check river over to villian you are repping one of two pair and he will bluff with anything.
 
deyvsonflp

deyvsonflp

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Total posts
1,560
Awards
7
Chips
1
Pre flop ok
Flop ok
Turn showed weakness.
The player who plays attentively bets turn because he can show there a flush, top pair with Ace because of his check. On the river the SPR is called. Here, as it was played there is a bluff, Ace with lesser kicker. I would call. Because he is aggressive.
I believe the check turn was the mistake. Good luck.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,598
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
Pre flop ok
Flop ok
Turn showed weakness.
The player who plays attentively bets turn because he can show there a flush, top pair with Ace because of his check. On the river the SPR is called. Here, as it was played there is a bluff, Ace with lesser kicker. I would call. Because he is aggressive.
I believe the check turn was the mistake. Good luck.


So villain is turning a weaker Ace (a hand with possible showdown value) into a bluff?
Why is checking turn a mistake if it induces bluffs?

... I'm just trying to figure out the thinking process is all.
 
deyvsonflp

deyvsonflp

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Total posts
1,560
Awards
7
Chips
1
So villain is turning a weaker Ace (a hand with possible showdown value) into a bluff?
Why is checking turn a mistake if it induces bluffs?

... I'm just trying to figure out the thinking process is all.
the question here was to check the turn. I would give a cbet turn and if the villain bet on the river, as he did, then yes, after the cbet turn he shoves I fold.
 
D

DancingNancie

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Total posts
182
Chips
0
I think because you've under-repped your hand by so much here, you need to call.

It's a perfect spot for villain to bet any wiffed draws.

As played the hand is incredibly under-repped and is much stronger than just a bluff catcher. I think this is a call on river as played.
 
Folding in Poker
Top