$22 NLHE MTT Bounty: Shove,call or fold???

Alucard

Alucard

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Not sure about the profitable move. SB could just be after the booty or perhaps even trapping me. Anyway it's gonna be a flip.
ITM with a $17 bounty of the shortstack )around 250 left with I'm at 125th ish)

PokerStars - 8000/16000 Ante 2000 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: 32.47 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 54)
MP: 8.22 BB (VPIP: 13.46, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 54)
CO: 28.56 BB (VPIP: 13.21, PFR: 3.85, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
BTN: 32.42 BB (VPIP: 24.39, PFR: 24.39, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 41)
SB: 54.6 BB (VPIP: 46.30, PFR: 26.42, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
Hero (BB): 47.59 BB

6 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.25 BB) Hero has 6h 6c
fold, MP raises to 8.09 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, SB calls 7.59 BB,
 
U

uavissar

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I fold. The extra 8BB do not give us enough odds to go against the range of SB. Furthermore, he covers us. If we would cover him its borderline worth to set mine.
 
Martin

Martin

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SB has a big VPIP, with it being a bounty game he's possibly fishing for bounties, IMO you have enough chips to see the flop and hope to either hit it hard or see a low flop, in my experience players tend to play looser in bounty games to try to take the bounty, so I'm calling this one.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

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I shove here.

SB has a high VPIP, and is in the SB, facing a shove from a short stack in a bounty tournament. I think you have substantial fold equity and are ahead of his range.

I think you are flipping with the short stack.

So if the SB folds, you are flipping, with the added incentives of the SB's dead chips in the pot and the bounty.

If the SB calls, you are ahead of his range for the very substantial side pot, and still in the running for the MP's chips and bounty.

Either situation is good.

If you fold you guarantee a small loss (the blind)
If you call you are likely to find yourself in a difficult spot post-flop.
 
U

uavissar

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I shove here.

SB has a high VPIP, and is in the SB, facing a shove from a short stack in a bounty tournament. I think you have substantial fold equity and are ahead of his range.

I think you are flipping with the short stack.

So if the SB folds, you are flipping, with the added incentives of the SB's dead chips in the pot and the bounty.

If the SB calls, you are ahead of his range for the very substantial side pot, and still in the running for the MP's chips and bounty.

Either situation is good.

If you fold you guarantee a small loss (the blind)
If you call you are likely to find yourself in a difficult spot post-flop.

The high VPIP is over 54 hands. That's not enough hands.
Seriously considering shoving 40bb with 66? If SB calls you are most likely crushed. Best case you are flipping. Why even get into this scenario?
 
Alucard

Alucard

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Well I did exactly what trent & alex said but not exactly sure all the reasons behind it??

The SB was pretty loose. We have fold equity vs him. A $17 bounty as well as risking little to win more.
Other than that???


And this brings to my next question.
Do we have a shoving range here?? And a calling range as well??
 
froggeedogs

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I call the raise. will see the flop in that position. hit or fold.............would NOT shove ever in that spot.
 
U

uavissar

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Well I did exactly what trent & alex said but not exactly sure all the reasons behind it??

The SB was pretty loose. We have fold equity vs him. A $17 bounty as well as risking little to win more.
Other than that???


And this brings to my next question.
Do we have a shoving range here?? And a calling range as well??

I'd shove AK, JJ, QQ and maybe 1010 if I had some more history with them.
I'd call KK AA to trap and AJs+ (yes may call with AK as well) because of position.
 
Alucard

Alucard

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I'd shove AK, JJ, QQ and maybe 1010 if I had some more history with them.
I'd call KK AA to trap and AJs+ (yes may call with AK as well) because of position.

come on! That's nitty af! I'd never play like this & you can't make it far like playing like this
 
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uavissar

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come on! That's nitty af! I'd never play like this & you can't make it far like playing like this
Maybe its nitty but I'm not throwing away 40bb with a small pair. If I had more history with them I may act differently but ~50 hands is just not enough in my opinion to help with a decision.


- Now I see I made a mistake and didn't include smaller pairs I'd call with. 88 and 99 , may shove with 1010.


- ....and you can check my other posts....I'm not that nitty. This is just an iffy spot in my opinion. But I'll be glad to see more opinions.
 
A

AlexTheOwl

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The high VPIP is over 54 hands. That's not enough hands.

VPIP stabilizes quickly, faster than any other stat. We can't say with confidence that the SB's range for voluntarily putting money in pots would be 46% over a large sample. It would probably be somewhat lower.But it would be very surprising if it was under 30%.


Seriously considering shoving 40bb with 66? If SB calls you are most likely crushed. Best case you are flipping.


If you give SB a very narrow range:
- I think you are making an error. This player likes to put money in pots, you are offering attractive pot odds, and he now has a chance at two substantial bounties instead of one.
- You are saying he is folding most of the time.


If you give him a wider range, the hero is slightly ahead, with the chance to pick up a bounty here and the chance to build a stack big enough to claim additional bounties in the future.


Why even get into this scenario?



It's fine to disagree, but my original post was composed almost entirely of an explanation of why I would shove. Did you only read the first line? Or do you have a specific question or specific disagreement with my reasoning?
 
T

Thenightrain

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Not sure about the profitable move. SB could just be after the booty or perhaps even trapping me. Anyway it's gonna be a flip.

ITM with a $17 bounty of the shortstack )around 250 left with I'm at 125th ish)



PokerStars - 8000/16000 Ante 2000 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com



UTG: 32.47 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 54)

MP: 8.22 BB (VPIP: 13.46, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 54)

CO: 28.56 BB (VPIP: 13.21, PFR: 3.85, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)

BTN: 32.42 BB (VPIP: 24.39, PFR: 24.39, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 41)

SB: 54.6 BB (VPIP: 46.30, PFR: 26.42, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)

Hero (BB): 47.59 BB



6 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB



Pre Flop: (pot: 2.25 BB) Hero has 6h 6c

fold, MP raises to 8.09 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, SB calls 7.59 BB,



I think you should be playing here, two options

- I’d consider is flat call, see the flop and play from there or more likely;

- the SB has only called rather than re-shoved on you so he probably has Ax so a 3 bet raise into the SB would probably lead them to fold and leave you heads up with the MP shover.
 
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uavissar

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It's fine to disagree, but my original post was composed almost entirely of an explanation of why I would shove. Did you only read the first line? Or do you have a specific question or specific disagreement with my reasoning?

I explained my reasoning- I think you are relying on a very small sample when making a statement like "This player likes to put money in pots.". So in reality, he is a random like any other player.


If I shove and get called by SB, best case I'm flipping (As I don't see SB calling with 55 or lower pairs) and I don't see a reason flip when I'm over 40BB deep.
If I shove and SB folds, I'm flipping for 16BB and the bounty.
 
E

Edvin55555

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For me it's easy call here. 8BB push in bounty tournament might be very wide.
 
lilu80

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MP here is with only M4 stack and from his image can play push with about 26% range: 22+,A2s+,K7s+,QTs+,JTs,A2o+,KJo+,QJo
5a33b62c4a15057cb355495e4ba38044.png
You 66 is 10% range. Your EQ vs this 26% range is 54% and profitable!
In the bounty and with your big M21 stack, you can show this much loose. I play here vs his image with about 30% to 35% example with minimum range: 22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
b4b718377b17e53bdd228d6c9b54e939.png
OFC your play here IMO is always profitable!
 
Alucard

Alucard

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OFC your play here IMO is always profitable!

Thanks! Well written.
What is this M4,M21 stack sizes? I've only heard hear n there about them without much knowledge
 
10058765

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Thanks! Well written.
What is this M4,M21 stack sizes? I've only heard hear n there about them without much knowledge
M calculates how many orbits you can survive doing nothing but paying BB+SB+antes.
In this case 8000/16000 ante 2000 we pay 36000 (2.25 BB) every orbit of 6 hands.
Divide your actual stacksize by this 36000 and you get M.
M = stacksize/36000 or
M = stacksize in BB/2.25

So in this case MP has M of 3.65 and you have M of 21.15

oh....on a sidenote this is the situation now and obviously M decreases every hand you go down in chips, but just as with the number of BB, M will also decrease (fast) in the next level, so if you are close to the next blind level you can adjust for that.

Now some people prefer calculating BB, some prefer calculating M, but people calculating BB often make the mistake not taking care of the antes and so not really realizing their stack is worth less then the number of BB show.

For example, in this case BB is 16000, so with a 160K stack they have 10 BB.
Because of the antes, 2000 and so 12000/orbit their adjusted BB is way less (close to 6BB).

In case my calculations are not correct I ask the real experts to correct me, but I think you got the idea.
 
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liuouhgkres

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First things first, obviously it's never fold here. You need to decide between call and raise/shove. I think we are little too short for raising here, if we raise and SB calls we are in a very unpleasant situation. I think shoving is fine. If SB had JJ+ AQ+ he would raise, so we can remove those hands from his range. Shoving definetely should be profitable, but imho, if you want to play safe calling is fine too.
 
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