$22 NLHE MTT: $$22 NLHE MTT: A9 suited on button vs cutoff open icm

B

BigXerxes

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2018
Total posts
26
Awards
1
Chips
9
Final 13 of 200+ entrants. One shorter stack on table with 5 bigs. I have 10 bigs. In 8th place overall. 7 handed, Cutoff player with 25 bigs shortest stack in BB. Cutoff opening a lot of hands, my table image may be somewhat nitty as I have been super card dead. Cutoff opens to 2 bbs I have Ah9h and jam. Get called by cutoff who has AK. Is this a bad jam with ICM considerations? Thank you 😊
 
Nr98

Nr98

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Total posts
589
Chips
0
Perfectly fine to jam imo. Especially if CO is opening way more loose. Ofcourse to say anything properly about ICM we need more info (stacks/payout structure). But in any case, A9s BU v CO open is a fine jam here on 10bb for sure.

CO does not want to call it off too light so you're gonna pick up the 4-4.5bb a lot, which is massive. Besides that you even perform reasonably well vs his calling range. AK is just a bit unlucky.
 
U

UkoChebuko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Total posts
381
Chips
0
Is this a bad jam with ICM considerations?
Click to expand...
I don't think so. Ofc depends on many things, mainly the ICM. But I think this shove is pretty normal. Vs loose CO...
 
B

BigXerxes

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 20, 2018
Total posts
26
Awards
1
Chips
9
ICM was not huge. $75 for 12th, 90 for 9th, 120, 160 etc. definitely very top heavy $900 for first $600 for second

I think jam was the right play just a little unlucky.
 
3

300HPGOD

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Total posts
1,469
Awards
11
Chips
126
To me this comes down to payouts, which you listed, and also how much we think cutoff is going to fold. You mention that they are opening a lot of hands but if they aren't going to fold to a 10 BB shove then they can call with a lot and put us at 60% which is good as long as we are willing to take the 40% risk of getting knocked out and the risk they could have a bigger Ax or pocket pair. I see a few reasons to jam this here and a one to not jam it (without knowing fold tendencies of villain). The two for jamming would be we are at 10 BB so we cant wait much longer and we have a hand that will be ahead of the opening range of villain if they are opening often as you say. The case against it is I never like jamming over a raiser this low unless I have something really good. I like to make the first move when I jam to maximize fold equity.

I think all in all it depends on how wide they are opening when you say "they are opening often" and what their folding tendency would be in this spot. I would lean towards going with it and jamming but I would also not be too surprised when I run into a hand like you ran into.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,424
Awards
1
Chips
294
Questions like this is, what ICMizer is for, and they actually give everyone a free daily hand just for signing up. Anyway I plugged it in for you based on the information given: 13 players left, Hero 10BB stack, CO 25BB stack, BB 5BB stack, Hero 8. place overall. I had to estimate the other stack sizes of course, so its not 100% correct. I also did not know the exact payout, so I just picked a random MTT (27 paid on 888 Poker). None of this should matter much though, since there was low ICM-pressure. This is ICMizers range for Hero jamming:

A9o+, A3s+, KQo, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 33+

Some of these hands are so marginal, you can take them off, if you want to. "Look for a better spot", as the saying goes. If you require to have an EV of at least 0,1% of the price pool, then the range become:

ATo+, A9s+, KJs+, 44+

However if CO was "opening loose", there is probably little need to narrow our range, and regardless A9s is still a jam. In general running into AK does not mean, a jam was bad. It just mean, the opponent was near the top of his range. Sometimes we will also run into AA, and then every single hand is in bad shape except the other AA.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Total posts
1,324
Chips
0
fundiver199 said:
Questions like this is, what ICMizer is for, and they actually give everyone a free daily hand just for signing up. Anyway I plugged it in for you based on the information given: 13 players left, Hero 10BB stack, CO 25BB stack, BB 5BB stack, Hero 8. place overall. I had to estimate the other stack sizes of course, so its not 100% correct. I also did not know the exact payout, so I just picked a random MTT (27 paid on 888 Poker). None of this should matter much though, since there was low ICM-pressure. This is ICMizers range for Hero jamming:

A9o+, A3s+, KQo, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 33+

Some of these hands are so marginal, you can take them off, if you want to. "Look for a better spot", as the saying goes. If you require to have an EV of at least 0,1% of the price pool, then the range become:

ATo+, A9s+, KJs+, 44+

However if CO was "opening loose", there is probably little need to narrow our range, and regardless A9s is still a jam. In general running into AK does not mean, a jam was bad. It just mean, the opponent was near the top of his range. Sometimes we will also run into AA, and then every single hand is in bad shape except the other AA.
Click to expand...


Again, another great analysis and confirmed what I had already suspected that A9s was an easy jam in this spot -- we just ran into the top of their range and it is what it is. When we flat and the BB squeezes and the CO calls - we are in no man's land - and when we call, the BB squeezes and the CO iso jams - we get away while still losing what could be a significant portion of our stack (10% or more).

Also when we are relatively short - if we were to flat and go to a flop we are stacking off to an A hi flop and are going to face the same end reauslts here - nothing we can do - again, just ran into the top of their range. Kudos on the jam tho, I think alot of players are missing this spot especially this deep. Remember, icm is nowhere near as high on the final two tables and we are still trying to setup for the win!
 
1

1player2

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Total posts
365
Chips
0
BigXerxes said:
Final 13 of 200+ entrants. One shorter stack on table with 5 bigs. I have 10 bigs. In 8th place overall. 7 handed, Cutoff player with 25 bigs shortest stack in BB. Cutoff opening a lot of hands, my table image may be somewhat nitty as I have been super card dead. Cutoff opens to 2 bbs I have Ah9h and jam. Get called by cutoff who has AK. Is this a bad jam with ICM considerations? Thank you 😊
Click to expand...




Hello,

I think you played it well. Icm would not change my play with 10bb in this spot. This hand is just to strong to fold. Just a bad beat
 
Vilgeoforc

Vilgeoforc

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Total posts
877
Awards
2
Chips
0
With 10 BB, I usually switch to push / fold mode, With 10 BB, I would throw off A9o, being close to the prizes.
 
Shumkoolie

Shumkoolie

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Total posts
1,209
Awards
1
Chips
0
At first, when I was reading through the thread, thinking that you should not have shoved, but it didn't take much convincing me that you played it fine. I think I was just too pre-occupied with being "results oriented", that you jammed on someone who raised only because they were unconcerned with someone shoving behind them, but because they are active as you said, their range is wide enough that A9, even if it's the bottom of your shoving range here, is not in TOO bad a shape against villain's range. BUT, you ran into the top of their range, and that's going to happen to everyone who plays this game.

Plus, as Evan Jarvis (Gripsed) says, 30% of the time 100% of the time.

Simply unlucky on your part.
 
MoryMorte

MoryMorte

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 10, 2016
Total posts
298
Chips
0
Very standard jam off of 10 BB especially when V is opening loose. As Fundiver ran it through ICMizer, it is a clear jam. If you had multiple short stacks w/ less than 5 BB on your table, you can make a case for a fold because you can blind them out and get to the FT pay jump. Not saying you should do this. I mean it will impact the ICM consideration. At that stage, there is not much of ICM much.
 
eetenor

eetenor

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Total posts
2,175
Awards
2
Chips
183
BigXerxes said:
Final 13 of 200+ entrants. One shorter stack on table with 5 bigs. I have 10 bigs. In 8th place overall. 7 handed, Cutoff player with 25 bigs shortest stack in BB. Cutoff opening a lot of hands, my table image may be somewhat nitty as I have been super card dead. Cutoff opens to 2 bbs I have Ah9h and jam. Get called by cutoff who has AK. Is this a bad jam with ICM considerations? Thank you ��
Click to expand...


Thank U 4 Posting

Interesting spot. It could go either way as- if we double we can battle for first so turning down a good opportunity to double is equity negative as well.

The question becomes how wide would the Villain open when the BB has 5BB so was this a good spot to steal or double?

Do you have Equilab the free version is good to get a strong idea of how much equity we have in these spots.

I ran it and A9s is 51% versus a standard CO open range.
Interestingly enough AT jumps to 55%-T9s is 58%

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Last edited:
Top