$1650 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Violate the 5/10 Rule?

S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
I’ve got one to discuss:
In the HPT Main Event here in Colorado this past weekend, I found myself in an interesting spot. First, how I got to that spot:

Hand #1
Starting stacks are $30K, $50/$100 blinds in Level 1, and 40 minute levels on Day 1, 60 on Day 2.

There was an UTG +1 open to $300 on the 5th hand of the event. That player had played every single hand thus far – and had been looked up twice OTR to the point where he mucked face-down both times – He had roughly $20K remaining, already having lost 1/3 of his stack.

Anyway, we had 6 calls to me in the BB. I had :10h4: :5d4:

Normally, I’d simply fold there – and maybe I should have? However, I was getting enormous pot odds and made the call even though I really didn’t want to – I’d love to be able to fold that hand, but just couldn’t find a reason to do so.

Pot - $2,400
:jh4: :6h4: :5c4:

The action checked to +1 who C-bet $600 (horribly ridiculous sizing). Which, surprisingly, actually generated a few folds, however, he got 2 calls, the SB folded, and I made the call with a clear Category 2 hand and an awesome price.

Pot - $4,800
:5s4:

Hmmm. So, I decided that there was a decent chance the action would check through if I were to check, and even if he did make a bet, it would have been something stupid like $1,200. I wanted to make sure and charge draws, of which, are plentiful, I was sure, and go for the old stop-n-go (even though it kind of turned my hand face-up). I led for $3,100, +1 called and the other 2 players folded.

Pot - $11,000
:9c4:

I decided to simply move all-in, the reason being that I want to have a polarized range and have some bluffs there. He only had $16,400 back and he was bad enough that maybe he calls with a naked a Jack – who knows. My thinking was simply in the interest of balance.


He snap called and rolled :9s4: :5h4:
So, ummmmm…yeah. I guess I lose to A5s combos and things like JJ that he should have from EP anyway – although that doesn’t really add up with the turn action, I wasn’t really thinking that I’d be beat by the old EP 95o in a $1650 event, but hey – some people like lighting money on fire I guess.

Hand #2

So, anyway – on to the point of this post, I had $9,300 chips left and the levels had gone up to the $75/$150 level.

There was a +1 open to $400 and 2 calls to me in the HJ, I had :7h4: :7s4:
I made the call.

I feel that’s very standard, I wasn’t folding, and I think a 3-bet is bad with my relative stack size because it’s not going to generate the necessary fold equity. I suppose I could have jam’d, but I still had 60BB’s – so I hate that too.

The CO called, BTN called, and the SB decided to squeeze to $2K. (Again, absurdly horrible squeeze sizing), and everyone called to me.

Decision point: Can I jam? I don’t think so. Can I fold? Sure, but do I want to? I have $9,300 chips and really don’t want to violate the 5/10 rule, which would be $900 max, hell, I’d be violating the 5/20 rule with a call. But…. There was so much in the pot, and both players to my left were broadcasting calls by reaching for calling chips as well….****……I didn’t like it, but I called.

Pot - $16K
:7c4: :3s4: :8c4:

The action checked to me and I jam’d for $7,300. The CO tank over-called and a very good player in the BB (Cord Garcia) called as well after mulling it over for a while. I knew what Cord was up to there, he most certainly had a very speculative hand, but, like me, couldn’t resist the pot size and the fact that my all-in slowed everything down.

Pot - $37,900
:9s4:

Check/Check

:6h4:

Cord bet $12K. The CO moved all-in after tanking for a bit, and Cord folded :6s4: :6d4: face up. The CO showed :10s4: :10d4: for the second nuts and goodbye HPT Main bullet number 1; bullet number 2 didn’t go a whole lot better.

I have no idea what the CO was thinking pre-flop. Post-flop he had to call IMO, but pre-flop, he turned what is likely the best hand, in LP no less, into a set mine. Whatever, but it goes back to my decision to call the extra $1,600 pre-flop with my 77 violating the 5/10 rule that I’d like to discuss – Acceptable? Should I be folding in that spot?
 
Last edited:
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Hand 1: Ask yourself, is getting that price worth playing 100% of hands? I certainly don't think so. There are MANY hands I would fold there. I might continue with the top say 60% of hands, but T5o is definitely not in that group.

On the flop I... kind of... get why you are calling. But in reality on a lot of runouts you're not going to be able to make up the difference of calling the bet with such a poor hand, particularly when you sometimes have a bit of reverse implied odds on Tx or heart runouts. The turn is the only street I like. We def have to lead on this exact card.

River, I think is somewhat optimistic, and you are begging to be called by only hands that beat you. That being said, I get it, especially in a live event that probably has a lot of satellite entries. But really, it's sort of a silly criticism of him playing 95o when you defend T5o (an objectively worse hand) - I'm aware you were in BB and he was +1 but even so man. You kind of need him to show up with like 85o and stuff here if you are gonna just rip it in imo.


Hand 2: Preflop first call is totally fine and standard. No you definitely don't want to 3bet. But I really really really don't like your call pre. Even with guys telegraphing behind, you're not getting the right price. And even when you do flop a set you don't always win (this board case in point). I just think your chips have too much value to be sticking in the extra 1.6k here pre.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Hand 1: Ask yourself, is getting that price worth playing 100% of hands? I certainly don't think so. There are MANY hands I would fold there. I might continue with the top say 60% of hands, but T5o is definitely not in that group.

On the flop I... kind of... get why you are calling. But in reality on a lot of runouts you're not going to be able to make up the difference of calling the bet with such a poor hand, particularly when you sometimes have a bit of reverse implied odds on Tx or heart runouts. The turn is the only street I like. We def have to lead on this exact card.

River, I think is somewhat optimistic, and you are begging to be called by only hands that beat you. That being said, I get it, especially in a live event that probably has a lot of satellite entries. But really, it's sort of a silly criticism of him playing 95o when you defend T5o (an objectively worse hand) - I'm aware you were in BB and he was +1 but even so man. You kind of need him to show up with like 85o and stuff here if you are gonna just rip it in imo.


Hand 2: Preflop first call is totally fine and standard. No you definitely don't want to 3bet. But I really really really don't like your call pre. Even with guys telegraphing behind, you're not getting the right price. And even when you do flop a set you don't always win (this board case in point). I just think your chips have too much value to be sticking in the extra 1.6k here pre.

Yeah OK - TBH I'm a little relieved to read your opinion because I think the math says that both of these are clear calls. The 105o thing, I've only recently started adding these hands in these types of situations, partly because I think I'm a better post-flop player than most of these dumpster fires that open 95o from EP, but also because these pots can be massive.

I've been studying a lot of Doug Polk's methods, and you know folding is not his favorite play. I've just found that while a lot of his stuff is great in theory (and probably at higher stakes) at the stakes I play they can be disastrous and unprofitable. As a result I've found that I have to strike a balance between his methods/advice and reality.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
I think the T5o call preflop is standard getting 11:1 pot odds. But we are looking to smash flop when we are super multiway like this. Minimum necessary for me to continue is bottom pair + FD. we're really looking for trips or 2 pair.

So, I'd just fold on this flop, yes even to this tiny bet. It's a call that seems innocent but can get you into tons of trouble.

As played I think you need to check call river to keep his bluffs alive. From the way you described him he likes to bluff rivers. Let him go crazy with his missed hearts or whatever. Because I agree with Matt, you're going to mostly get called by hands that beat you when you jam. There aren't very many 5x combos that you are beating.

and FWIW, I don't mind villain's tiny Cbet at all. He's making a price that the strength of his hand can take. Its a cheap stab if someone raises no big deal and if people call he is beating some draws and he gets to get a little closer to the river and re-assess.



Hand #2

flat of 400 is fine, and I agree with you that no you should not 3bet.

facing the 2k squeeze pot has 11,200 and it costs you 1600 more to call and you're getting 7:1 you're not quite getting the right direct odds to call to set mine and it's safe to assume that in an 8 handed pot 77 will need to improve to win. If you closed the action I think it would be a fold (although close because you do have some implied odds with your remaining stack).

But I think in this particular case the presence of the live reads that both players on your left intend to call is actually critical information. You have to be really sure because calling and then getting squeezed out before the flop is a disaster.

if you assume both of those players call, now the pot "has" 14,400 and you nee 1600 to call so you're getting 9:1. You actually have more than the direct odds needed to call and there is a small amount of implied odds since you'll have 7,300 behind so I think it makes it just barely a call. Again, you have to be really sure of this read. I've played live enough hours to know these reads do exist and can be rock solid.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
I think the T5o call preflop is standard getting 11:1 pot odds. But we are looking to smash flop when we are super multiway like this. Minimum necessary for me to continue is bottom pair + FD. we're really looking for trips or 2 pair.

So, I'd just fold on this flop, yes even to this tiny bet. It's a call that seems innocent but can get you into tons of trouble.

As played I think you need to check call river to keep his bluffs alive. From the way you described him he likes to bluff rivers. Let him go crazy with his missed hearts or whatever. Because I agree with Matt, you're going to mostly get called by hands that beat you when you jam. There aren't very many 5x combos that you are beating.
and FWIW, I don't mind villain's tiny Cbet at all. He's making a price that the strength of his hand can take. Its a cheap stab if someone raises no big deal and if people call he is beating some draws and he gets to get a little closer to the river and re-assess.

I'm definitely not changing my action based on his bet-sizing, I was just noting that it is horrible sizing on a wet, multi-way board, unless he somehow has quads. So, I'd be calling just about any reasonable C-bet there - if we're going to fold a flop that we actually make a pair on, we should just fold pre - wouldn't you agree? And that's OK with me - that may be the answer here anyway.

I also don't like check/call OTR. We have a nearly nutted hand, and none of the major draws got there. Additionally, we have the 10h blocker and the 5 blocker - I don't think we can assume he has any kind of 5 too often - if he does, he almost certainly has us beat anyway. And a player this bad, would probably pay us off with a Jack, three-pair, or possibly worse.

Additionally, our hand on the flop was a Category 2 (check/call) type of hand. Upswing will define that as a hand that can't stand 3-streets of value, but still has equity, bottom pair certainly fits the bill. Upswing is going to want us to balance our Cat 2 range with Cat 4 hands (Air); as a result, sometimes we'll be floating the flop with KQ or A10, in the interest of balance.

OTT our hand becomes a Category 1 (3-streets for value) hand. We have to balance that range of hands with our Cat 3 (Semi-bluff) hands. On this board, that'd be something like 34hh, or maybe Q10hx. So, we have to do the same thing with both of those ranges - and we're never going to check/call 34hh OTR - so, that's the logic behind the all-in OTR; not sure if I did a very good job explaining it though.

This hand just sucks that he actually had a worse 5 and filled up - but, it just goes back to the pre-flop decision making - which is where the meat and potatoes of this conversation are - once I get to the flop, I'm actually happy with the action - I think it's consistent with the Upswing approach - now, whether that's profitable at my relative low stakes or not - is a different story. This approach probably works much better in the high-roller events where players actually take note of hands your check/calling with and how often you're doing it; against dumpster fires that are opening 95o early, it probably doesn't make any difference and seems to over extend us – it just costs us most of our stack when they get there.

Hand #2

flat of 400 is fine, and I agree with you that no you should not 3bet.

facing the 2k squeeze pot has 11,200 and it costs you 1600 more to call and you're getting 7:1 you're not quite getting the right direct odds to call to set mine and it's safe to assume that in an 8 handed pot 77 will need to improve to win. If you closed the action I think it would be a fold (although close because you do have some implied odds with your remaining stack).

But I think in this particular case the presence of the live reads that both players on your left intend to call is actually critical information. You have to be really sure because calling and then getting squeezed out before the flop is a disaster.

if you assume both of those players call, now the pot "has" 14,400 and you nee 1600 to call so you're getting 9:1. You actually have more than the direct odds needed to call and there is a small amount of implied odds since you'll have 7,300 behind so I think it makes it just barely a call. Again, you have to be really sure of this read. I've played live enough hours to know these reads do exist and can be rock solid.

And in this case, at this table, those reads were rock-solid - each player already had calling chips in their hands. Nonetheless, I still think over extends us, which is the basic premise behind the 5/10 rule and the reason why you don't violate it. However, in tournament poker, if you're not doing every single thing you can to win the ginormous pots, you're going to lose, or min-cash.

So, bottom line, I really don't know what to do there - I think a fold is probably best, but I really don't like it because it feels like a give-up slide on the 1-yard line. By the same token, I don’t really like a call either - when we miss 7/8 times, we're going to go from 60BB's to 45BB's - and the 1/8 times we spike, we can't even make a half-pot all-in wager.

So yeah, this is a tough one.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
It seems you’re overthinking the first hand. And you don’t seem to be understanding the category 1-4 applications. It’s normal to make mistakes with new info once you start applying it so it’s to be expected and no big deal you’ll learn from it if you have the right mindset. But to reply with “upswing says” and not examine your assumptions will limit your learning.

Rarely is there 1 right answer and even among the several main creators of the upswing lab they are probably going to disagree on borderline hands.

Yes they have you pair category 2/4. That doesn’t mean you BALANCE them, as in check call with nothing. It means when you check sometimes you’ll check call and sometimes you’ll check fold. It doesn’t mean sometimes you’ll float with nothing category 4 hands are our give up hands.

Also the strength of our hand is relative. I do not believe we have a category 2 hand on the flop; I think it’s a category 4 hand. It’s trash and that’s because we are super multi way. In a HU pot it would be the bottom of the category 2 range. In a 6 way pot it’s value goes way down.

Either way, I agree the way the hand plays out it’s a cooler. But overall I think the flop play is -EV in the long run and until you have a better understanding of how to play trashy hands post flop it’s probably best to let them go preflop just to keep yourself out of trouble. Eventually you’ll need this skill so as your comfort level increases you can add more and more hands from the bottom of the mathematical defend range (based on pot odds).
 
Last edited:
Poker Rules - Poker Games
Top