$15 NLHE MTT Bounty: CHOICES: 66 in SB to Raise and Multiple Flatters

HerbPuffer · Aug 14, 2020

What are we doing here folks? New table, not many hands on villains. Seemed to be a lot of this 2,5x from EP and flatters or just limpers like there is no tomorrow.

There are about 20 minutes of late registration left.

pokerstars - 150/300 Ante 50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BB: 24,196 (80.7 bb)
UTG: 4,397 (14.7 bb)
UTG+1: 8,568 (28.6 bb)
MP: 29,344 (97.8 bb)
MP+1: 3,469 (11.6 bb)
CO: 5,041 (16.8 bb)
BTN: 3,637 (12.1 bb)
Hero (SB): 6,372 (21.2 bb)

8 players post ante of 50, Hero posts SB 150, BB posts 300

Pre Flop: (pot: 850) Hero has

fold, UTG+1 raises to 675, MP calls 675, fold, CO calls 675, BTN calls 675,

fundiver199 · Aug 14, 2020

I think, you need to fold. If you call 66 multiway, its strictly a setmine, and you dont have enough stack behind for that. You have to put in another 425, and generally you want at least 20 times that amount to be left behind. The other option is to rip it in, but I think, that is a bit of a suicide mission with all that action in front of you.

HerbPuffer · Aug 14, 2020

fundiver199 said:
I think, you need to fold. If you call 66 multiway, its strictly a setmine, and you dont have enough stack behind for that. You have to put in another 425, and generally you want at least 20 times that amount to be left behind. The other option is to rip it in, but I think, that is a bit of a suicide mission with all that action in front of you.

Interesting. You don't think you've got enough implied to set mine here? You're already getting ~7:1 on the flat. W/a juicy flop that draws even more action while hitting my 6?

Just asking. We'll give it a bit more time to see what others have to say.

Thanks for the input.

fundiver199 · Aug 14, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
Interesting. You don't think you've got enough implied to set mine here? You're already getting ~7:1 on the flat. W/a juicy flop that draws even more action while hitting my 6?

It is kind of close, and maybe the 20X rule dont quite apply to a multiway situation like this, because as you say, the pot is already big. It is important to remember though, then even when we flop a set, we are not always winning the pot. Sometimes we lose our entire stack to a better set, a better boat, a straight or a flush. And this is why, that 20X buffer is generally recommended.

Its also a little bit about, how you want to invest your chips. Here you would take 10% of your stack and use it on a long shot. And there is an argument for picking spots, where the reward is smaller but the successrate higher. Like stealing blinds. I would not consider calling a big mistake though, and I am also interested to hear, what others have to say

HerbPuffer · Aug 14, 2020

fundiver199 said:
It is kind of close, and maybe the 20X rule dont quite apply to a multiway situation like this, because as you say, the pot is already big. It is important to remember though, then even when we flop a set, we are not always winning the pot. Sometimes we lose our entire stack to a better set, a better boat, a straight or a flush. And this is why, that 20X buffer is generally recommended.

Its also a little bit about, how you want to invest your chips. Here you would take 10% of your stack and use it on a long shot. And there is an argument for picking spots, where the reward is smaller but the successrate higher. Like stealing blinds. I would not consider calling a big mistake though, and I am also interested to hear, what others have to say

Oh yeah, I know it could be in danger to a lot of shit w/that many limits. I think ther way a lot of ppl play at the cutoff of late reg it's safe a good bit of times as well. Especially in a PKO.

Jon Poker · Aug 14, 2020

Simple math at work here - we need odds of 15:1 on our money to profitably set mine - so with a 2.5x open we need approximately 37.5bb+ in our stack and villans stack to make the call. Easy fold because of that.

Now - the second part is on 25bb or less we can just 3b jam almost all of our pairs - 66s is one of those hands. We are likely flipping when we do get it in, even tho there's always the chance of running into overpairs here - so when we are this shallow - it becomes less about the set mining odds - and moreso about this being a 3bet or fold type hand.

Heads up - i would reshove this all day long - but as played with this much action in front - we have very little fold equity. I would just pass on this spot and look for a better one. Thats my personal choice here.

HerbPuffer · Aug 14, 2020

Jon Poker said:
Simple math at work here - we need odds of 15:1 on our money to profitably set mine - so with a 2.5x open we need approximately 37.5bb+ in our stack and villans stack to make the call. Easy fold because of that.

Now - the second part is on 25bb or less we can just 3b jam almost all of our pairs - 66s is one of those hands. We are likely flipping when we do get it in, even tho there's always the chance of running into overpairs here - so when we are this shallow - it becomes less about the set mining odds - and moreso about this being a 3bet or fold type hand.

Heads up - i would reshove this all day long - but as played with this much action in front - we have very little fold equity. I would just pass on this spot and look for a better one. Thats my personal choice here.

You got me confused w/the first part and the set mining price to call. Are you saying a combined 37.5bb or 37.5 in each of our stacks. If the former I'm already getting ~7:1 and close to 9:1 if the BB decides to stick around. If the former is the case, then I should easily have the odds if a 6 pops on the flop. Even if the only caller I get is MP+1 then that's another 11.6bb so that would take it to 18:1 from the odds PF. Also your math was done using a 2.5x raise, his raise is only 2.25 makes it only 33.75bb.

I'm also surprised that both of you have mentioned the squeeze shove, but only as a last resort, and neither are real keen on it. Especially seeing as this has been going on quite a bit at the table.

Would it have made a difference if I said that on a few of the multiple limper pots, a shove from someone in late position or one of the blinds got folds around? Does this change anything w/you?

thehangdude · Aug 15, 2020

Best I can figure, there are 12 BB in the pot and you need to put just under 2BB to call. This will leave you with about 18BB. Sets are 7.5 to 1, and the pot is already over 6 to 1. Easy call, and easy fold when it doesn't hit. Easy check/shove if one or two 6s hit. The only scare is the BB shoving preflop.

The fold and wait play is safe because set over set happens in five player flops. But to say you are too short to set mine when 12BB are already in, and you have 18BB more is too tight. And jamming is just silly with the pot odds the other players would have, and each caller giving the next guy better odds.

marvinsytan · Aug 15, 2020

hit me a set baby

im definitely calling here to set mine too juicy for me

this is a chance to win a big pot

this is a scenario spot im dreaming about in my dreams

Jon Poker · Aug 15, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
You got me confused w/the first part and the set mining price to call. Are you saying a combined 37.5bb or 37.5 in each of our stacks. If the former I'm already getting ~7:1 and close to 9:1 if the BB decides to stick around. If the former is the case, then I should easily have the odds if a 6 pops on the flop. Even if the only caller I get is MP+1 then that's another 11.6bb so that would take it to 18:1 from the odds PF. Also your math was done using a 2.5x raise, his raise is only 2.25 makes it only 33.75bb.

I'm also surprised that both of you have mentioned the squeeze shove, but only as a last resort, and neither are real keen on it. Especially seeing as this has been going on quite a bit at the table.

Would it have made a difference if I said that on a few of the multiple limper pots, a shove from someone in late position or one of the blinds got folds around? Does this change anything w/you?

The odds of hitting a set ARE roughly 7.5:1 - but we need 15:1 on our money to make our set mining call mathematically profitable - all the other villans in the pot surely increase our implied odds - but when focusing on getting the right price we should focus on the opening villans stack size and our own - we both need the correct amount of chips to make it a profitable play. Everyone else who's advocating for the call any fold when we miss is just burning chips - and thats not my opinion - that's math. We are going to put in 10% of our stack here to attempt to smash the flop 13% of the time - just a bad spot.

Secondly - with this many villans in the pot there is a chance (though still very slight) that we could run into a set over set type cooler - or we get a great flop like 225 and we get our money in anyway - only to find out we were against TT or 88 and so on. Too much action in front, too many villans in the pot, just fold and find a better spot for 20bb.

Lastly - I like where your head is at if there were a limp or two and late position raise - then 66s become a MUCH better squeeze spot because there hasn't been much strength shown in the pot. The issue will be depending how large our villan opens depends on how much fold equity we will have and the more money in the pot the less we will have. Being called and taking 66s heads up is more than fine even when we run into it - we just ideally don't want to take 66s multi way - it generally doesn't work out.

I hope this helps.

HerbPuffer · Aug 15, 2020

fundiver199 said:
It is kind of close, and maybe the 20X rule dont quite apply to a multiway situation like this, because as you say, the pot is already big. It is important to remember though, then even when we flop a set, we are not always winning the pot. Sometimes we lose our entire stack to a better set, a better boat, a straight or a flush. And this is why, that 20X buffer is generally recommended.

Its also a little bit about, how you want to invest your chips. Here you would take 10% of your stack and use it on a long shot. And there is an argument for picking spots, where the reward is smaller but the successrate higher. Like stealing blinds. I would not consider calling a big mistake though, and I am also interested to hear, what others have to say

Jon Poker said:
The odds of hitting a set ARE roughly 7.5:1 - but we need 15:1 on our money to make our set mining call mathematically profitable - all the other villans in the pot surely increase our implied odds - but when focusing on getting the right price we should focus on the opening villans stack size and our own - we both need the correct amount of chips to make it a profitable play. Everyone else who's advocating for the call any fold when we miss is just burning chips - and thats not my opinion - that's math. We are going to put in 10% of our stack here to attempt to smash the flop 13% of the time - just a bad spot.

Secondly - with this many villans in the pot there is a chance (though still very slight) that we could run into a set over set type cooler - or we get a great flop like 225 and we get our money in anyway - only to find out we were against TT or 88 and so on. Too much action in front, too many villans in the pot, just fold and find a better spot for 20bb.

Lastly - I like where your head is at if there were a limp or two and late position raise - then 66s become a MUCH better squeeze spot because there hasn't been much strength shown in the pot. The issue will be depending how large our villan opens depends on how much fold equity we will have and the more money in the pot the less we will have. Being called and taking 66s heads up is more than fine even when we run into it - we just ideally don't want to take 66s multi way - it generally doesn't work out.

I hope this helps.

So, I mentioned it in the original post but you guys may not have given it much thought or aren't too big on re-entering? Would it change you guys' thought process any if I said I was willing to re-enter?

thehangdude · Aug 15, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
So, I mentioned it in the original post but you guys may not have given it much thought or aren't too big on re-entering? Would it change you guys' thought process any if I said I was willing to re-enter?

I agree. There is no better time to take a small risk (8.5% of your stack) to more than triple up. That is what the rebuy is for, taking viable risks. Even if you miss, you have plenty of chips to have fold equity, and a full round before you are paying blinds again.

Jon Poker · Aug 15, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
So, I mentioned it in the original post but you guys may not have given it much thought or aren't too big on re-entering? Would it change you guys' thought process any if I said I was willing to re-enter?

thehangdude said:
I agree. There is no better time to take a small risk (8.5% of your stack) to more than triple up. That is what the rebuy is for, taking viable risks. Even if you miss, you have plenty of chips to have fold equity, and a full round before you are paying blinds again.

Why would you WANT to get it in when you are already thinking you may have a good chance of losing and then just rebuy? We make more money when we cash off of one bullet - so just because we are willing to rebuy doesn't mean we should want to. Find a better spot - especially when you already know there's a good chance you are beat.

Secondly and for the last time - yes we CAN risk the minimum to try and realize our implied odds - yes, we are getting pot odds to call and realize our raw equity -- the problem is that we are generally behind when there is this much action in front of us, our odds are generally negative implied simply because there are too many hands already in the pot - which is exactly why this is a 3bet or fold spot and the correct choice - from my personal perspective - is to fold and find a better spot. We have over 20bb - we are nowhere near a point of needing to risk our entire stack in a multi way pot like this.

If we keep taking these spots where we risk 10% of our stack with a high chance of missing - or going to see a ton flops that are going be bad for us - we are lighting chips on fire and will be the reason for our own demise later in the tournament. Chips we save are more valuable than chips we can potentially earn. Saving 2 blinds here and there avoiding spots we just dont need to take can be the difference maker in our finished result. Take it with a grain of salt - but any icm program will tell you this spot is a snap fold.

HerbPuffer · Aug 16, 2020

fundiver199 said:
I think, you need to fold. If you call 66 multiway, its strictly a setmine, and you dont have enough stack behind for that. You have to put in another 425, and generally you want at least 20 times that amount to be left behind. The other option is to rip it in, but I think, that is a bit of a suicide mission with all that action in front of you.

Jon Poker said:
Why would you WANT to get it in when you are already thinking you may have a good chance of losing and then just rebuy? We make more money when we cash off of one bullet - so just because we are willing to rebuy doesn't mean we should want to. Find a better spot - especially when you already know there's a good chance you are beat.

Secondly and for the last time - yes we CAN risk the minimum to try and realize our implied odds - yes, we are getting pot odds to call and realize our raw equity -- the problem is that we are generally behind when there is this much action in front of us, our odds are generally negative implied simply because there are too many hands already in the pot - which is exactly why this is a 3bet or fold spot and the correct choice - from my personal perspective - is to fold and find a better spot. We have over 20bb - we are nowhere near a point of needing to risk our entire stack in a multi way pot like this.

If we keep taking these spots where we risk 10% of our stack with a high chance of missing - or going to see a ton flops that are going be bad for us - we are lighting chips on fire and will be the reason for our own demise later in the tournament. Chips we save are more valuable than chips we can potentially earn. Saving 2 blinds here and there avoiding spots we just dont need to take can be the difference maker in our finished result. Take it with a grain of salt - but any icm program will tell you this spot is a snap fold.

If I am up for and properly BR'd firing two bullets in a tournament, this is about the time of the tournament that I decide I need at least 2x starting stack or try to get to that point or re-enter. The way the table had been playing I figured this was as good of a shot as any to at least increase my stack by 50% if I get the table to fold to my jam, or I'm going to get a caller or two and be able to treble up or so. For that reason I decided to shove. I f I have to re-enter then I'm still coming in w/App 5 more minutes of ~16bb.

Not only did I pull one rabbit out of a hat, but two of them dudes seemed to be in there up to some kinda tomfoolery and took me to a cpl bounties and septupled my stack.

Granted, I understand this may not be optimal at all times but w/me being ready and willing to reenter the tourney w/in the next 10 minutes I figured my window was closing and this was a decent place to test the waters.

I appreciate both you guys' input and analysis of the hand and am in no way disputing the fact that as FunDiver put it, "that is a suicide mission." I will take this thread into consideration w/any PP probably TT and smaller and fold the majority of the time. But me being in a tough spot w/really not much of an idea of what to do, and feeling just a call here was the worst of plays, I decided to go w/aggression and got extremely lucky seeing what I was up against and how the flop came.

PokerStars - 150/300 Ante 50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

Hero raises to 6,322 and is all-in, fold, UTG+1 raises to 8,518 and is all-in, MP calls 7,843, CO calls 4,316 and is all-in, BTN calls 2,912 and is all-in

Flop: (32,636, 5 players)

Turn: (32,636, 5 players)

River: (32,636, 5 players)

Results: 32,636 pot (0 rake)
Final Board:

UTG+1 shows

: (Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 17%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 19%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [3,993]: (Pre 64%, Flop 13%, Turn 18%)
Side Pot #3: [4,392]: (Pre 79%, Flop 88%, Turn 84%)

MP shows

: (Two Pair, Sixes and Fours)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 13%, Flop 2%, Turn 11%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 13%, Flop 2%, Turn 11%)
Side Pot #2: [3,993]: (Pre 17%, Flop 2%, Turn 11%)
Side Pot #3: [4,392]: (Pre 21%, Flop 12%, Turn 16%)

Hero shows

: (Four of a Kind, Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 16%, Flop 5%, Turn 3%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 17%, Flop 5%, Turn 3%)
Side Pot #2: [3,993]: (Pre 20%, Flop 85%, Turn 71%)

CO shows

: (Full House, Aces full of Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 45%, Flop 89%, Turn 87%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 51%, Flop 93%, Turn 87%)

BTN shows

: (One Pair, Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 8%, Flop 3%, Turn 0%)

UTG+1 wins 4,392
Hero wins 28,244

Thanks again, guys.

GL All in Future Games,

HerbPuffer

HerbPuffer · Aug 16, 2020

So I guessyou could say I was due for this to happen maybe?lol.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/a-g...ep-tonight-approaching-ft-464511/#post5715075

zuker · Aug 17, 2020

Your M<8 so you have to play push/fold.
With so many cold callers you have no fold equity and your hand equity low -> just fold.

Jon Poker · Aug 17, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
If I am up for and properly BR'd firing two bullets in a tournament, this is about the time of the tournament that I decide I need at least 2x starting stack or try to get to that point or re-enter. The way the table had been playing I figured this was as good of a shot as any to at least increase my stack by 50% if I get the table to fold to my jam, or I'm going to get a caller or two and be able to treble up or so. For that reason I decided to shove. I f I have to re-enter then I'm still coming in w/app 5 more minutes of ~16bb.

Not only did I pull one rabbit out of a hat, but two of them dudes seemed to be in there up to some kinda tomfoolery and took me to a cpl bounties and septupled my stack.

Granted, I understand this may not be optimal at all times but w/me being ready and willing to reenter the tourney w/in the next 10 minutes I figured my window was closing and this was a decent place to test the waters.

I appreciate both you guys' input and analysis of the hand and am in no way disputing the fact that as FunDiver put it, "that is a suicide mission." I will take this thread into consideration w/any PP probably TT and smaller and fold the majority of the time. But me being in a tough spot w/really not much of an idea of what to do, and feeling just a call here was the worst of plays, I decided to go w/aggression and got extremely lucky seeing what I was up against and how the flop came.

PokerStars - 150/300 Ante 50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

Hero raises to 6,322 and is all-in, fold, UTG+1 raises to 8,518 and is all-in, MP calls 7,843, CO calls 4,316 and is all-in, BTN calls 2,912 and is all-in

Flop: (32,636, 5 players)

Turn: (32,636, 5 players)

River: (32,636, 5 players)

Results: 32,636 pot (0 rake)
Final Board:

UTG+1 shows : (Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 17%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 19%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [3,993]: (Pre 64%, Flop 13%, Turn 18%)
Side Pot #3: [4,392]: (Pre 79%, Flop 88%, Turn 84%)

MP shows : (Two Pair, Sixes and Fours)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 13%, Flop 2%, Turn 11%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 13%, Flop 2%, Turn 11%)
Side Pot #2: [3,993]: (Pre 17%, Flop 2%, Turn 11%)
Side Pot #3: [4,392]: (Pre 21%, Flop 12%, Turn 16%)

Hero shows : (Four of a Kind, Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 16%, Flop 5%, Turn 3%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 17%, Flop 5%, Turn 3%)
Side Pot #2: [3,993]: (Pre 20%, Flop 85%, Turn 71%)

CO shows : (Full House, Aces full of Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 45%, Flop 89%, Turn 87%)
Side Pot #1: [5,616]: (Pre 51%, Flop 93%, Turn 87%)

BTN shows : (One Pair, Sixes)
Main Pot: [18,635]: (Pre 8%, Flop 3%, Turn 0%)

UTG+1 wins 4,392
Hero wins 28,244

Thanks again, guys.

GL All in Future Games,

HerbPuffer

We are being EXTREMELY results oriented...just look at how bad we got it all in! Lots of players are willing to rebuy - but we should not WANT to actively put ourselves in losing situations where we will need to rebuy once the hand is over. The mentality of "well i either double up or rebuy" is costing you money - it effects overall profit, and it effects your decisions throughout the game. It is what it is, i cannot force you to play from my perspective. I am just trying to instill proper discipline and a better mindset for you and others. You can find better spots than these to "double up or go broke" - much better spots! I've said my peace. GL to you, and everyone else here in your games.

fundiver199 · Aug 17, 2020

For the record I think, this jam would have been fine with TT, 99 and maybe even 88. But as our pair gets lower and lower, we are going to be dominated more and more often, and our equity just generally tanks. So with 66 I think, jamming is clearly not a +EV play, while its up for debate, if we can profitably call and play a setmine. Of course this time it turned out, there was little difference between 55 and TT, but we did not know their cards in advance.

HerbPuffer · Aug 18, 2020

Jon Poker said:
We are being EXTREMELY results oriented...just look at how bad we got it all in! Lots of players are willing to rebuy - but we should not WANT to actively put ourselves in losing situations where we will need to rebuy once the hand is over. The mentality of "well i either double up or rebuy" is costing you money - it effects overall profit, and it effects your decisions throughout the game. It is what it is, i cannot force you to play from my perspective. I am just trying to instill proper discipline and a better mindset for you and others. You can find better spots than these to "double up or go broke" - much better spots! I've said my peace. GL to you, and everyone else here in your games.

I'm really not being results oriented. N if so then I can count out the next 25 or 30 times I'm in this position Judy because of the results I got.

For example that not being results oriented. In the last 20 or so games I've played I did fold hands up to 88 in this same situation at least 5 or six times.

If I'm asking a question about a hand I am looking for real answers that benefit me in the long run that poker is. I take all answers that make thae most sense and apply them to game situations. I don't ask questions to get good, rational, well- explained, and correct(+ev) answers to just throw them by the wayside.

That is the one thing I miss about being coached/staked and having a group of players to talk to and do reviews with.

I really do appreciate your explanation here, and if I could go back and replay the hand, shoving is a 10/90 dog to the fold, because like I said previously, the flat wasn't really one of the choices here.

Thanks again Jon. You're words didn't go unread.

UkoChebuko · Aug 18, 2020

Call, because the KO tournament. Otherwise fold...

eetenor · Aug 25, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
So, I mentioned it in the original post but you guys may not have given it much thought or aren't too big on re-entering? Would it change you guys' thought process any if I said I was willing to re-enter?

Thank U 4 Posting.

The decision to gamble or not is yours to make. As others have said you will not be getting the proper odds to set mine, but if you can re-buy and get a similar stack size then you can if YOU choose to, knowingly take that risk. Especially if you feel you have an advantage over the field. Firing multiple bullets to Final Table is better than firing one bullet to min cash.

How you play should be how you play. More risk, with the knowledge that it is higher risk, is one way to be a winning player.

So make that loose call but go old school "No Set No Bet" It is perfectly fine to deviate from standard play pre-flop if we play well post flop and our V do not.

Hope this Helps

fundiver199 · Aug 25, 2020

HerbPuffer said:
So, I mentioned it in the original post but you guys may not have given it much thought or aren't too big on re-entering? Would it change you guys' thought process any if I said I was willing to re-enter?

No. Re-entering is just the same as late registrering to another tournament, so its not like, it gives you any advantages, if you are playing for profit. In fact late registering or reentering to a bounty tournament with only 20 min left of late registration is really bad for your winrate. Some of the bounty money has already been distributed, and you will be a below average stack, which makes it difficult to win some of the remaining bounty money as well. So if I bust from a bounty tournament this late, I never reenter.

As for how the bountys change stack off ranges, I did not even consider this is my original reply. But I think, its close to neutral or even slightly bad. Its good, that you have the two last guys covered, but you dont have the first two guys covered, so you probably get more action, than you would in a non-bounty, and all in all the bountys do not improve your pot odds, unless the two last guys had a really large bounty attached to them.

Finally this seems like a very juicy table with 3 guys calling preflop, even though 2 of them should have folded and the last one jammed, and also with two guys calling off your jam, even they should have folded. And on such a juicy table I just prefer to be more value heavy, when I jam.

Taking the setmine could perhaps have been profitable though, because these guys probably cant get away from anything postflop either. So there is a real chance, you can stack not just one of them, but several of them, if you flop your set. After thinking about it again, I dont think, the 20x rule apply to a spot like this, where stacks are short, and you are against multible bad players.

HerbPuffer · Aug 25, 2020

fundiver199 said:
No. Re-entering is just the same as late registrering to another tournament, so its not like, it gives you any advantages, if you are playing for profit. In fact late registering or reentering to a bounty tournament with only 20 min left of late registration is really bad for your winrate. Some of the bounty money has already been distributed, and you will be a below average stack, which makes it difficult to win some of the remaining bounty money as well. So if I bust from a bounty tournament this late, I never reenter.

As for how the bountys change stack off ranges, I did not even consider this is my original reply. But I think, its close to neutral or even slightly bad. Its good, that you have the two last guys covered, but you dont have the first two guys covered, so you probably get more action, than you would in a non-bounty, and all in all the bountys do not improve your pot odds, unless the two last guys had a really large bounty attached to them.

Finally this seems like a very juicy table with 3 guys calling preflop, even though 2 of them should have folded and the last one jammed, and also with two guys calling off your jam, even they should have folded. And on such a juicy table I just prefer to be more value heavy, when I jam.

Taking the setmine could perhaps have been profitable though, because these guys probably cant get away from anything postflop either. So there is a real chance, you can stack not just one of them, but several of them, if you flop your set. After thinking about it again, I dont think, the 20x rule apply to a spot like this, where stacks are short, and you are against multible bad players.

Thanks for stopping back. I really like what you had to say about re-entering that late in a bounty. The table being soft had me thinking lately as well. I really hate flatting, though, in almost any situation.lol.

Thanks again, I just posted another one I hope you take a loot at and give some input.

-HP

Nr98 · Aug 26, 2020

To everyone talking about a 20x rule and so on, yes this makes some sense for HU play. But in a multiway pot where you're pretty much guaranteed to stack any villain who hits top pair, it would be insane to fold. Very simple reason: pot odds. You get 7:1, this is as good as it gets. Calling definitely is +EV.

Alternatively ripping it in is totally fine as well. There's so much dead money in the pot that this will be very profitable too. Yes, occasionally you're behind but the dead money more than makes up for that.

Having said that though, in a game like this I think flatting is best. For two reasons:
1. You may get called a bit wider in games like this (lower fold equity than should be). This is against jamming.
2. Usually you don't want a low SPR (stack to pot ratio) when setmining. However because the pot odds are so favourable this is no problem (again 7:1). Added benefit of a low SPR here is that it's very easy to get stacks in (Villains at these stakes are pretty much unable to ever fold top pair on low SPR flop even multiway with a lot of action in front of them). So you have the combination of insane pot odds AND implied odds.

Tl dr: jam definitely +EV (no big icm pressure), but a call is probably optimal. Just don't fold.

Edit: Missed that it's a bounty tourney. Doesn't change too much in our situation though. We just got lower FE both pre and postflop vs UTG+1 and MP, while having increased implied odds vs BU and CO. Makes flatting even more favourable (additionally I think on a jam we fold out a decent chunk of BU and CO range anyways, so it's favourable to keep them in and try to stack them post).

$15 NLHE MTT Bounty: CHOICES: 66 in SB to Raise and Multiple Flatters

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