$11 NLHE MTT Turbo: $$11 NLHE MTT Turbo: Slow Play Bad Karma?

j2fl

j2fl

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We all have at least 30 blinds.

I 3x bet pre flop to $240 with AQo in MP. Next to act and BB call.

Flop is AcQs4h. BB bets $80 - I only call - figuring I could maximize by raising later - wanting action. Well I got it.

Turn is 7h - BB bets $320 - I raise to $640. Only BB calls. River is 7s. BB bets $720 - I raise to $1440 - he calls and rolls his Q7o. Catches a boat.

Q7o ??? In BB with a 3x pre flop raise? Good grief.

From all the reading I have done and videos I have watched I am not certain I did wrong by slow playing my hand.

Thoughts?

:jd4: :jd4:
 
ovsleka

ovsleka

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the situation is certainly not pleasant-but this could not happen if you do not give the opponent to play and to make decent bets or even go all in
 
K

kozong

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why give your opponent cheap flop when you can extract more value from him
 
T

Tobaer

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You should have made 5x. It wasn’t to much for him to call just 2 more blinds even with Q7.
In my opinion the mistake was before the flop. Your slow play on the flop changes nothing. Why? Because if someone thinks that calling preflop OOP with Q7 is a good and profitable play than he wasn’t going to lay down middle pair. This time he got lucky but it was your preflop play that gave him the odds to call.
 
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Tobaer

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I change my betting size accordingly to the players I am playing with. If there are tight players then 3x is a good size bet but if I am facing a fish I make it 5x especially if I am holding a good hand. Fishes always want to take a look at the flop and see if they connect so I make them pay good.
 
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kozong

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I change my betting size accordingly to the players I am playing with. If there are tight players then 3x is a good size bet but if I am facing a fish I make it 5x especially if I am holding a good hand.

but we didnt know if the BB is a fish or a tight player until the river aint we?
 
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Jiraika

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Why did you raise his river bet ? you're only called by better hands here.
You didnt make mistakes preflop, if he call Q7o to defend, that his probleme not yours.
Your only mistake was your raise at the river. You wanna see who win with this hand not raise, you're not strong enough on this spot.Only A4 maybe call here.
You wanna protect your stack on this spot, not extract value from only one or two made hand.
 
T

Tobaer

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but we didnt know if the BB is a fish or a tight player until the river aint we?

Not knowing the player I wouldn’t have played it that way.
Lets analyze it.
Preflop MP we are looking at AQo (if we assume we don’t know the player) so we place a standard raise 3x. everyone folds but the big blind.
He is getting 2.25:1 for a call. And he calls. We can discard QQ+ (sometimes also JJ) because he could have reraised. Also AKs or offsuit. We also can discard small suited connectors such as 23s till 78s and non suited.
Now, what can call here? Small till middle pairs (22-1010), high suited or off suit connectors J10, JQ, KQ. Maybe some one gapper like KJ, AQ, Q10, or a double gapper K10, AJ and A10. I can keep in mind some weak A like A2s till A9s type of hands depending on what type of player we think we are facing.

On the flop he donkbets for the minimum $ 80 (1bb) and the original raiser decides to just call to try to gain some chips later on. Not a bad move but it doesn’t tell us much about the players range so maybe a reraise should have been better. We can discard hands like AQ, AJ and A10 (the bet size would have been bigger).

Then the turn is a 7 and the BB leads out. So he has fit the flop in some way because he leads for more or less for 1/2 of the pot.
Lets discard something here: 22, 33, 55, 66, KJ, K10, J10, small and middle suited connectors such as 23s till 10-9 (a small seven isn’t good enough to raise here so discard them), 88-1010 would have called here instead of leading out also because hero could have played tight a weak ace.

We are left with Q10, KQ, QJ, 44, 77, and some type of weak ace.
Hero reraises (not a good sized bet in my opinion) and he calls so we could say he has hit very good. At least a good Q (KQ, QJ), 2 pairs like A4, A7 or a set (44, 77).

River is another 7.

BB leads out again with, I assume, most of his chips. He is willing to put most of his chips with another 7 on the board. Why? Norman Chad would say that a 2 changes nothing but a 7 can.
Does he really want to risk everything with a weak Q (KQ, QJ, Q10) or a weak A (A4 isn’t good anymore)?
It leaves us with 44 or A7 almost 85-90% of the times.
I would have folded leaving myself still with 18bb (still playable considering the blinds are small and there are no antes).
 
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WiZZiM

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you got it all in with the best hand you had him completely crushed. you got it all in by turn so wp
 
j2fl

j2fl

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You should have made 5x. It wasn’t to much for him to call just 2 more blinds even with Q7.
In my opinion the mistake was before the flop. Your slow play on the flop changes nothing. Why? Because if someone thinks that calling preflop OOP with Q7 is a good and profitable play than he wasn’t going to lay down middle pair. This time he got lucky but it was your preflop play that gave him the odds to call.

Very good point. Thanks for chiming in.
 
j2fl

j2fl

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Not knowing the player I wouldn’t have played it that way.
Lets analyze it.
Preflop MP we are looking at AQo (if we assume we don’t know the player) so we place a standard raise 3x. everyone folds but the big blind.
He is getting 2.25:1 for a call. And he calls. We can discard QQ+ (sometimes also JJ) because he could have reraised. Also AKs or offsuit. We also can discard small suited connectors such as 23s till 78s and non suited.
Now, what can call here? Small till middle pairs (22-1010), high suited or off suit connectors J10, JQ, KQ. Maybe some one gapper like KJ, AQ, Q10, or a double gapper K10, AJ and A10. I can keep in mind some weak A like A2s till A9s type of hands depending on what type of player we think we are facing.

On the flop he donkbets for the minimum $ 80 (1bb) and the original raiser decides to just call to try to gain some chips later on. Not a bad move but it doesn’t tell us much about the players range so maybe a reraise should have been better. We can discard hands like AQ, AJ and A10 (the bet size would have been bigger).

Then the turn is a 7 and the BB leads out. So he has fit the flop in some way because he leads for more or less for 1/2 of the pot.
Lets discard something here: 22, 33, 55, 66, KJ, K10, J10, small and middle suited connectors such as 23s till 10-9 (a small seven isn’t good enough to raise here so discard them), 88-1010 would have called here instead of leading out also because hero could have played tight a weak ace.

We are left with Q10, KQ, QJ, 44, 77, and some type of weak ace.
Hero reraises (not a good sized bet in my opinion) and he calls so we could say he has hit very good. At least a good Q (KQ, QJ), 2 pairs like A4, A7 or a set (44, 77).

River is another 7.

BB leads out again with, I assume, most of his chips. He is willing to put most of his chips with another 7 on the board. Why? Norman Chad would say that a 2 changes nothing but a 7 can.
Does he really want to risk everything with a weak Q (KQ, QJ, Q10) or a weak A (A4 isn’t good anymore)?
It leaves us with 44 or A7 almost 85-90% of the times.
I would have folded leaving myself still with 18bb (still playable considering the blinds are small and there are no antes).


This is obvioulsy one of the things I need to incorporate into my game, this kind of hand analysis. The sooner the better. Any suggestions?
 
j2fl

j2fl

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why give your opponent cheap flop when you can extract more value from him

I think because I felt if I bet more, there may not be any callers. I guess be careful what you wish for. lol
 
j2fl

j2fl

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Why did you raise his river bet ? you're only called by better hands here.
You didnt make mistakes preflop, if he call Q7o to defend, that his probleme not yours.
Your only mistake was your raise at the river. You wanna see who win with this hand not raise, you're not strong enough on this spot.Only A4 maybe call here.
You wanna protect your stack on this spot, not extract value from only one or two made hand.

I agree 100% with this. I did not put him on much more than 2 pair - with the 4 as the bottom pair. I think that was a mistake in itself. I thought when the last 7 hit he was trying to represent it, and not actually have it.
 
87shorts

87shorts

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no point in slow playing unless you have the absolute nuts and cant be outdrawn on later streets. I would have re-raise his flop bet to 70% of the pot so he would have had to pay big money to chase off his second pair and eventual boat. slow playing gets beat over and over again and its one of the biggest leaks people consistently make.
 
Jim Brown

Jim Brown

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lolminraises
I would say this was deserved because of that, not slow play bad karma

Really though, defending Q7 is bad, but if he calls that and lolminbet donks 80 into 760 he's probably calling a flop raise as well, and 2 pair on the turn not folding either. It's just an disaster of a hand all around.
 
H

Hello_how are you

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I don't think you made any bad plays here. It's just a classic bad beat by a fish.
 
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16clumsyandshy

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Can't put the player on Q7, maybe A7. You may want to raise the player leading on the flop to get value from their weaker aces. But sometimes you can just call it and let the player hang themselves when they make a worse 2 pair. Bummer.
 
PHX

PHX

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If he checked the flop would you check back? If yes then you should slow play. Nothing wrong with slow play on flop. I would raised more on turn though and river is a just call. Bad run out but it is poker it happens.
 
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