$11 NLHE MTT: Big $11 40k gtd Final Table - 5 left, shove

okthishard · Oct 5, 2016

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T70,000/T140,000
Buy-in: $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit
pokerstars
5 players

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (T14,733,155)
CO - Hero (T1,272,181)
BTN - BTN (T3,439,827)
SB - SB (T2,498,505)
BB - BB (T3,686,332)

Preflop: (T297,500, 5 players) Hero is CO with Js Kc
1 fold, Hero raises to T1,254,681 (all-in), 1 fold, SB calls T1,184,681, 1 fold

Flop: 8s 7s Qc (T2,736,862, 2 players, 1 all-in - SB: T1,226,324, Hero: T0)
Turn: 7c (T2,736,862, 2 players, 1 all-in - SB: T1,226,324, Hero: T0)
River: 3h (T2,736,862, 2 players, 1 all-in - SB: T1,226,324, Hero: T0)

Total Pot: T2,736,862
SB shows 5h As (a pair of Sevens)
Hero shows Js Kc (a pair of Sevens - lower kicker)

SB wins T2,736,862

-

should i have raised instead?

Knittle · Oct 5, 2016

I think your line is fine, it really depends on the stats of the other players though.

First and foremost, you have under 10 BB so that jam is technically FINE. You'll get folds, and calls with worse and the fac the called you off with A5 was the correct choice I guess? but marginal.

trent32la · Oct 5, 2016

Snap shove, you have 9bb and are the shortest by far so ICM affects the other players, not you.

bushy_lufc · Oct 6, 2016

100% fine don't worry about the result, if you're folding this then you may as well be prepared to blind out.

horizon12 · Oct 6, 2016

I think we can find a fold preflop here, because we very often play in the final table and KJo is really weak hand for shove from CO.

trent32la · Oct 6, 2016

horizon12 said:
I think we can find a fold preflop here, because we very often play in the final table and KJo is really weak hand for shove from CO.

Did you even look at the stack sizes? We have 9bb on the cutoff and are last in chips by far, we should be shoving pretty wide here and way wider than KJo. A base shoving range here would be something like.

22+ A2+, K6s+,K9o+,Q8s+,QTo+,J8s+,JTo+,T8s+,98s+,87s+

Knittle · Oct 6, 2016

trent32la said:
Did you even look at the stack sizes? We have 9bb on the cutoff and are last in chips by far, we should be shoving pretty wide here and way wider than KJo. A base shoving range here would be something like.

22+ A2+, K6s+,K9o+,Q8s+,QTo+,J8s+,JTo+,T8s+,98s+,87s+

It's a shove no doubt, but if he gets called he is behind almost all of the time.

Does the BB or SB find a call with K9s there? idk depends on stats, but I probably would find a call there.

You just have to snap shove the JK and hope you don't get called basically.

trent32la · Oct 6, 2016

Knittle said:
It's a shove no doubt, but if he gets called he is behind almost all of the time.

Does the BB or SB find a call with K9s there? idk depends on stats, but I probably would find a call there.

You just have to snap shove the JK and hope you don't get called basically.

The players behind should be calling pretty tight, as making an incorrect call here will be very costly and I don't think they will expect us to be shoving as wide as the range I listed.

K9s would be a slight -cEV call for the SB and a HUGE -$EV call, likewise his A4o call was.

Even if we do get called, we still have decent equity against a calling range with KJ. I would much prefer shoving KJ over A5o in this spot.

Jim Brown · Oct 10, 2016

ICMizer is perfect for calculating these, and KJo is a clear shove here with opponents default 8% calling range: 66+, ATs+, AJo+

Hero's +EV shove range is really, really wide also:
(64.4%) 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q5o+,J2s+,J7o+,T2s+,T7o+,93s+,97o+,84s+,86o+,74s+,76o,63s+,53s+

However, if SB is calling down to A5 (and presumably wider) then this becomes a fold. 24% call range for SB makes Hero's shove range (16.3%) 33+,A3s+,A8o+,KTs+,KQo,QJs

Edit:
short version: shove wide for fold equity
shove even wider if opponents call tight
tighten up (a lot) if opponents call wide

Most of your equity comes from the ~80%+ times opponents fold. The times you are called you will have some equity, but getting called is pretty much never what you want. Likewise if someone else has put chips in already tighten way, way up.

ribaric · Oct 10, 2016

you have made the right decision cuz u were short stack and i suppose u were in money

serenshippity · Oct 13, 2016

no 9bb thats a profitable shove from c/o

GameTheoryOptional · Oct 14, 2016

do you have a HUD? this is a good shove in a vacuum but it depends so much on your opponents and the situation.

Jim Brown's answer is the most complete, now you fill in your opponents stats.

When you are this deep in a tournament you may also want to take some
-chipEV folds if the players around you are looser and you might be able to move up a pay spot which could be worth thousands in this situation.

Tech101205 · Oct 15, 2016

The shove is good decision as we are short by 9 bb
according to ICM KJo fits the range of hands we can shove
But I believe it would have been better to wait for a bit better hand
as we dont make it to FT more often
My preferred range would be mostly A7s + , Any suited broadways (no off suits)
and coming to pairs i prefer 88 +

In this very situation i would like to raise min and fold to anyone who comes over top
If got called , depending on opp who called and the reads we have on him
we can decide whether to bluff if flop fits our range according to our raise / play check game simply

Gabinho12345 · Oct 16, 2016

It's a good shove because you only had 9bb left

ninoverm · Oct 16, 2016

Tech101205 said:
In this very situation i would like to raise min and fold to anyone who comes over top

We're on 9 BB. That would be one of the most disastrous plays ever.

Tech101205 · Oct 16, 2016

ninoverm said:
We're on 9 BB. That would be one of the most disastrous plays ever.

It cant be that much disastrous
We can find flop play here
if we hit good or then we can fold

We dont make it to FT more often
so we can adjust our plays
even though ICM tells us KJoff is good , it can be an option to go for , its not like only choice we have
the shove is Technically Correct , but plays can be adjusted

ninoverm · Oct 17, 2016

Tech101205 said:
It cant be that much disastrous
We can find flop play here
if we hit good or then we can fold

We dont make it to FT more often
so we can adjust our plays
even though ICM tells us KJoff is good , it can be an option to go for , its not like only choice we have
the shove is Technically Correct , but plays can be adjusted

It doesn't matter how many times you're in this spot. Maybe if there's a lower stack and the pay jump really means a lot to you a fold would be reasonable. But we're the absolute lowest stack, there's no reason to fold your way to a pay jump.

Either way, a raise to 2 BB is laughable. It's shove or fold here. No matter what. Especially if you're then prepared to fold to a re-raise. You'd lose 22% of your stack, making a double-up even more worthless afterwards. Just raising here is absolutely no option.

Tech101205 · Oct 17, 2016

okay buddy

JPainTrainSicko · Oct 17, 2016

Fine shove by far. Without any additional info on opponents it's a standard shove. Now on the other hand if you see others committing icm suicide and you are the short stack maybe a case to fold can be made. But that is the exception in this type of situation rather than the rule.

antonis32123 · Oct 20, 2016

We have 9 BB , 5 turns before we are blinded out , we are the last in chips rank , so yes , it's a tough position , we can't raise , we must shove . We don't know if we'll have another better chance , so we go allin and we want the others to fold . If we had some BB more we would fold. Tough spot unfortunately .

okthishard · Oct 24, 2016

Jim Brown said:
ICMizer is perfect for calculating these, and KJo is a clear shove here with opponents default 8% calling range: 66+, ATs+, AJo+

Hero's +EV shove range is really, really wide also:
(64.4%) 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q5o+,J2s+,J7o+,T2s+,T7o+,93s+,97o+,84s+,86o+,74s+,76o,63s+,53s+

However, if SB is calling down to A5 (and presumably wider) then this becomes a fold. 24% call range for SB makes Hero's shove range (16.3%) 33+,A3s+,A8o+,KTs+,KQo,QJs

Edit:
short version: shove wide for fold equity
shove even wider if opponents call tight
tighten up (a lot) if opponents call wide

Most of your equity comes from the ~80%+ times opponents fold. The times you are called you will have some equity, but getting called is pretty much never what you want. Likewise if someone else has put chips in already tighten way, way up.

thx for the numbers

appreciate everyone's input

i was heated by the a5o call, that can't be good right?

hard to be objective when big $$$ jumps are involved sometimes

trent32la · Oct 24, 2016

okthishard said:
thx for the numbers

appreciate everyone's input

i was heated by the a5o call, that can't be good right?

hard to be objective when big $$$ jumps are involved sometimes

To put it this way, your opponent calling off A4o there is like saying......

$11 NLHE MTT: Big $11 40k gtd Final Table - 5 left, shove

okthishard

Enthusiast

Knittle

Rock Star

trent32la

Legend

bushy_lufc

Legend

horizon12

Legend

trent32la

Legend

Knittle

Rock Star

trent32la

Legend

Jim Brown

Rock Star

ribaric

Visionary

serenshippity

Rising Star

GameTheoryOptional

Enthusiast

Tech101205

Visionary

Gabinho12345

Legend

ninoverm

Rock Star

Tech101205

Visionary

ninoverm

Rock Star

Tech101205

Visionary

JPainTrainSicko

Rock Star

antonis32123

Legend

okthishard

Enthusiast

trent32la

Legend

Attachments

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site