$11 NLHE MTT: 95s call 4-bet all-in here?

teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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No Limit Hold'em Tournament T50/T100
Buy-in: $9.80+$1.20 USD Hold'em No Limit
PokerStars
9 players
Formatted by SharkScope.com - Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (
T4,198)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (
T14,034)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (
T7,646)
MP - MP (
T10,136)
MP2 - Hero (
T4,988)
CO - CO (
T4,265)
BTN - BTN (
T4,688)
SB - SB (
T5,642)
BB - BB (
T4,005)

Preflop: (
T258, 9 players) Hero is MP2 with 5♣ 9♣
UTG raises to T222, 2 folds, MP calls T222, Hero calls T222, CO calls T222, BTN raises to T1,000, 2 folds, UTG raises to T4,186 (all-in), 1 fold, Hero calls T3,964, 2 folds

Flop:
6♥ 2♥ 3♥ (T10,074, 2 players, 1 all-in - UTG: T0, Hero: T790)

Turn:
8♦ (T10,074, 2 players, 1 all-in - UTG: T0, Hero: T790)

River:
4♥ (T10,074, 2 players, 1 all-in - UTG: T0, Hero: T790)

Total Pot:
T10,074
UTG shows
Q♥ A♠ (a flush, Queen high)
Hero shows
5♣ 9♣ (a straight, Deuce to Six)

UTG wins T10,074
 
Edu1

Edu1

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"95s call 4-bet all-in here?" NO, sorry but why you call?
I think there's no doubt about that
 
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ph_il

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Eh, you're only a 40% underdog pre.

I'm guessing misclick...?
 
Poker Orifice

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I'm never calling the initial raise in this spot (unless I'm in BB).
 
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fundiver199

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Fold when the action first gets to you, fold to the 4-bet. Easy hand.
 
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ramignis

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even at these limits, these cards are all-in. he just got lucky at a distance such a game will only bring a minus to the win rate.
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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"95s call 4-bet all-in here?" NO, sorry but why you call?
I think there's no doubt about that


Eh, you're only a 40% underdog pre.

I'm guessing misclick...?

Fold when the action first gets to you, fold to the 4-bet. Easy hand.


It's multi-way pre so the hand is not that bad to call the initial raise.
On the 4-bet it's close, we get 2.5:1 pot odds and we have 2.3:1 against a decent range TT+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo, sometimes even better so ...?

What if this was HU? Why so quick in dismissing the spot, we're ashamed of plying fishy cards? What if you had 98s would you fold with 2:1 given 2.5:1 because the cards are not looking good?

even at these limits, these cards are all-in. he just got lucky at a distance such a game will only bring a minus to the win rate.

No, it won't. As I said above, it's actually a profitable call
 
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fundiver199

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You are not closing action, and if the 3-better makes the call, there is significantly less dead chips in the pot. Also in your equity calculation you are assuming, that UTG is 4-bet jamming essentially his entire opening range, which is typically going to be very far from true. If anyone has 99+, you are completely smoked 2-ways or 3-ways.
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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You are not closing action, and if the 3-better makes the call, there is significantly less dead chips in the pot.


Turns out my calculation is wrong, the pot odds were not 2.5:1 but 1.5:1 at the moment of the call.

If anyone has 99+, you are completely smoked 2-ways or 3-ways.


It's a fun table I don't put them in such a strong range and make this play
 
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DancingNancie

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It's multi-way pre so the hand is not that bad to call the initial raise.
On the 4-bet it's close, we get 2.5:1 pot odds and we have 2.3:1 against a decent range TT+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo, sometimes even better so ...?

What if this was HU? Why so quick in dismissing the spot, we're ashamed of plying fishy cards? What if you had 98s would you fold with 2:1 given 2.5:1 because the cards are not looking good?



No, it won't. As I said above, it's actually a profitable call

I don't understand this logic. You are looking at being a 4:1 dog a lot of the time with 9-5 in a 4 bet post. I don't think this is a profitable call in any range that you can come up with.
 
VovanBaron

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No Limit Hold'em Tournament T50/T100
Buy-in: $9.80+$1.20 USD Hold'em No Limit
PokerStars
9 players
Formatted by SharkScope.com - Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (
T4,198)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (
T14,034)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (
T7,646)
MP - MP (
T10,136)
MP2 - Hero (
T4,988)
CO - CO (
T4,265)
BTN - BTN (
T4,688)
SB - SB (
T5,642)
BB - BB (
T4,005)

Preflop: (
T258, 9 players) Hero is MP2 with 5♣9♣
UTG raises to T222, 2 folds, MP calls T222, Hero calls T222, CO calls T222, BTN raises to T1,000, 2 folds, UTG raises to T4,186 (all-in), 1 fold, Hero calls T3,964, 2 folds

Flop:
6♥2♥3♥ (T10,074, 2 players, 1 all-in - UTG: T0, Hero: T790)

Turn:
8♦ (T10,074, 2 players, 1 all-in - UTG: T0, Hero: T790)

River:
4♥ (T10,074, 2 players, 1 all-in - UTG: T0, Hero: T790)

Total Pot:
T10,074
UTG shows
Q♥A♠ (a flush, Queen high)
Hero shows
5♣9♣ (a straight, Deuce to Six)

UTG wins T10,074
Well played mate, I wish to play as you but I cant , I am not so theoretically strong as you.GJ and best of luck!!!
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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I don't understand this logic. You are looking at being a 4:1 dog a lot of the time with 9-5 in a 4 bet post. I don't think this is a profitable call in any range that you can come up with.
I miscalculated the pot odds, they were not a 2.5: 1 but 1.5:1.
It is a profitable call when the pot odds are at leat 2.3. I don't have the ranges but put it in poker stove and you'll see.
When I played the hand I didn't know this hand strength, I saw 60bb in pot, I needed to pay 40bb and I thought 95s is not far from 98s which has 40% against AK and company. In fact, I could have called with 97s as well but 95s is just 33%.
Bottom line, of course there are odds you can play this hand. Even 72o can be played against AA if you get pot odds 4:1 ...
 
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DancingNancie

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I miscalculated the pot odds, they were not a 2.5: 1 but 1.5:1.
It is a profitable call when the pot odds are at leat 2.3. I don't have the ranges but put it in poker stove and you'll see.
When I played the hand I didn't know this hand strength, I saw 60bb in pot, I needed to pay 40bb and I thought 95s is not far from 98s which has 40% against AK and company. In fact, I could have called with 97s as well but 95s is just 33%.
Bottom line, of course there are odds you can play this hand. Even 72o can be played against AA if you get pot odds 4:1 ...

We are just going to have to agree to disagree here. You can work the math to have it seem as though it is a good call. It just isn't. If you consistently get your money in as a 3 or 4:1 dog you are going to lose a lot of money playing poker. I think this is a standard preflop fold without thinking.
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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We are just going to have to agree to disagree here. You can work the math to have it seem as though it is a good call. It just isn't. If you consistently get your money in as a 3 or 4:1 dog you are going to lose a lot of money playing poker. I think this is a standard preflop fold without thinking.


Just to point out some small details, for whoever might be interested:
- 4:1 means 20% which is what any too cards have against AA.
- 3:1 means 25%
- the smaller the first number of the ratio, the better
- 95s had 2.3:1 in that spot
 
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DancingNancie

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Just to point out some small details, for whoever might be interested:
- 4:1 means 20% which is what any too cards have against AA.
- 3:1 means 25%
- the smaller the first number of the ratio, the better
- 95s had 2.3:1 in that spot


To clarify youre saying calling with 95s is a profitable call long term for this spot?
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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To clarify youre saying calling with 95s is a profitable call long term for this spot?
No not for this spot. But it is for some other spots, like the one here below

This decision for sure is ... also you are bad at math :)
I'm trying, mate, I'm trying ... posting here helps a lot. What do you think of this below?
Here's a good example for when 95s would be a good call. I had 98s, a better hand but still relevant.
The pot is 24bb and we need to pay 9.8bb which gives us about 2.5:1 pot odds.
My actual hand 98s had 1.5:1 against AK so it's an obvious call. But interestingly, 95s has 2.3:1 and since the we're given 2.5:1 we could've called had we held it:

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T40/T80
Buy-in: $0.91+$0.09 USD Hold'em No Limit
PokerStars
7 players
Formatted by SharkScope.com - Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (
T1,600)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (
T7,205)
MP - MP (
T3,833)
CO - CO (
T902)
BTN - BTN (
T873)
SB - SB (
T850)
BB - Hero (
T1,129)

Preflop: (
T190, 7 players) Hero is BB with 9♦ 8♦1 fold, UTG+1 calls T80, 2 folds, BTN raises to T863 (all-in), SB calls T800 (all-in), Hero calls T783, 1 fold

Flop:
K♠ 3♦ Q♥ (T2,716, 3 players, 2 all-in - BTN: T0, SB: T0, Hero: T256)

Turn:
4♦ (T2,716, 3 players, 2 all-in - BTN: T0, SB: T0, Hero: T256)

River:
6♦ (T2,716, 3 players, 2 all-in - BTN: T0, SB: T0, Hero: T256)

Total Pot:
T2,716
Hero shows
9♦ 8♦ (a flush, Nine high)
BTN shows
4♣ 4♠ (three of a kind, Fours)
SB shows
7♠ 7♣ (a pair of Sevens)

Hero wins T46 from side pot
Hero wins T2,670 from main pot
 
Vallet

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Do you calculate the bank's chances to play roulette ? Maybe you just want to annoy other players when luck is smiling ?
 
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ph_il

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It's multi-way pre so the hand is not that bad to call the initial raise.
On the 4-bet it's close, we get 2.5:1 pot odds and we have 2.3:1 against a decent range TT+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo, sometimes even better so ...?

What if this was HU? Why so quick in dismissing the spot, we're ashamed of plying fishy cards? What if you had 98s would you fold with 2:1 given 2.5:1 because the cards are not looking good?
Initial call is iffy at best, but not terrible if you want to splash around. I think 3betting is a better option than just flatting and folding is the best out of the 3. The main problem with calling 95s here is, yes, you're getting good odds to call pre, but that just means there are other hands getting the same odds and, in majority of situations, are ahead in equity preflop. You can easily be in a situation where you still lose, even if you hit. As played, it's a clear fold after the 4th bet. You tried to get in cheap to see a flop, it didn't work, let it go.
 
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