$11 NLHE MTT, 40 left in The Big 11: Fish min-donks flop, how to act?

P

ParasOsa

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Total posts
11
Chips
0
Hi folks, here's my very first post on any poker forum.

A few days ago I ran deep in this,~5600 runners, 40 left. My image is strong and tight in this table, but fish don't care at least pre.
I've opened like 3 times in 34 hands (not gettin cards), flops are seen every hand. If fish doesn't open, at least 1 fish calls an open. Can't throw cbets in if flop is missed.
SB and BB are not 3bettors. BTN aggromonkey 3bets 20%, I'm 4bet ripping anything I open vs him.

poker stars, $11 Buy-in (4,500/9,000 blinds, 1,125 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools by CardRunners - Hand Details

MP1: 183,943 (20.4 bb) 15/12 3b 22,2, AF 0
Hero (MP2): 228,304 (25.4 bb) 15/13, 3b 0,0 AF 2,0
MP3: 107,892 (12 bb) 21/10, 3b 20,0 AF 0
CO: 146,097 (16.2 bb) 20/19, 3b 0,0 AF 2,0
BTN: 793,544 (88.2 bb) 41/36 3b 20,0 (fold to 3b 100) AF 0,8 (cbet 60)
SB: 634,239 (70.5 bb) 32/16 3b 0,0 AF 1,8
BB: 258,692 (28.7 bb) 47/3 3b 5,6 AF 1,8
UTG+2: 324,960 (36.1 bb) 15/6 3b 14,3 AF 0

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3♣3♦
2 folds, Hero raises to 18,000, 3 folds, SB calls 13,500, BB calls 9,000

Flop: (63,000) 8♠4♦4♣ (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets 9,000, Hero raises to 29,600, SB folds, BB calls 20,600

Turn: (122,200) 7♦ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (122,200) T♠ (2 players)
BB bets 27,000, Hero folds

Oh man what should I do?

My thinking:

I decided to open with treys because:
-I have a tight image and I'm EP, steal can go through
-if button 3bets I'll shove if getting the chance, I can call HJ and CO if hu
-SB and BB won't 3bet me light
-If everyone doesn't fold then flop is likely w 18k investment so SET ONE TIME

And the flop is where I got confused. Last hand the now on BB guy limped UTG and stabbed A high flop small in limped 3 way pot, and check folded on a blank turn. Hes fold to CB is 67. Almost for sure he doesn't donk this size with 8, because...it's just the normal assumption with fish. It most likely is 4 with a good or bad kicker cause there's no draws. Could be 55-77.
In the moment I felt he's weak and I have to raise. But I think I raised too big cause he's not a TOTAL fish. Big just looks like I wanna push him off.
If I'd get a second chance I'd raise to 21000. Calling is too tricky. A smaller raise gives me a cheaper price to barrel turn 1/2 pot trying to make him fold. I'm giving up on any but 3 river probably. A riv could valuebet bluff. :rolleyes:

Turn check is the worst, just can't try to showdown.
River T is a bad card and he's sizing is really blockery, just cannot call. Now it's too late to raise half of the stack as a bluff/shove is not repping anything?
After all the best thing has to be open fold and wait for some cards and shove them. Plus seeing cheap flops from blinds works too.
Gotta learn how to play against these mindonk donks :confused:
 
Last edited:
W

WiZZiM

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Total posts
5,008
Chips
0
33 plays pretty horribly postflop, the only thing it really has going for it is the fact that it can hit sets. So when i open small pairs in this spot, i'm treating it like a setmining opportunity more than anything else, so i always open for the minimum and let other players call me.

Considering how short you are you can't really call a 3bet, like you mention in your thinking. You can 4bet jam over the button if you want though.

small donk leads are almost always pretty weak hands, but that doesn't mean that he's likely to just give it up if we raise. we have a few options here really the way i see it..

1. we can just call, this has the con of letting him realize equity with like JT or something that he's just stabbing out with. But with reads that he stabbed earlier and gave up later, i think it's a fine option since his bet is basically a check we can just treat it like one and get more info from him on the turn, folding to another barrell or betting him off his hand if he checks. This allows us to see showdowns more often, since our hand is often good on the flop, it will be on the river too.

2. raise to around 25k and fold to any action on later streets. Basically the same as what you have done, but a little smaller but not for the reasons you mention. FIsh don't read into bet sizes, so focus on saving chips for the action you choose, rather than reading into what you think he might be doing.

3. We can min-raise him on the flop, expect him to call and then fire another really small blocking type bet on the turn, this allows us to take control of the pot, get to a relatively cheap showdown, but it also means he has two chances to hit the fold button and he does not have much of a chance to bluff. THe problem with raise/checking turn is that fish will even notice that we are super weak and will likely bet when they have the chance.

Overall i like option 1. or 3. way more than the second probably going with option 3 for the majority of the time. Now just wanted to point out some possible flaws with how you approach the game, instead of focusing on what you think they are doing and what you think they think you are doing. Focus on opening a decently wide range in position, and value betting harder when you have fish on your table. You recognize it's not a great spot to bluff when you say

"flops are seen every hand. If fish doesn't open, at least 1 fish calls an open. Can't throw cbets in if flop is missed. " But that doesn't mean we can't open profitably like you mention here any pair top pair type hand is good for a ton of value vs fish, the biggest thing we make money on is when we have a top pair type hand and fish have a second best top or second pair type hand, nothing else makes us as much money postflop. So we need to be giving ourselves chances at making those situations happen, waiting for cards is a really bad idea since we fall victim to what we are dealt, but since everyone is dealt the same we need to do things to make sure we are making more EV than the field if we play mtts long term.

So overall a well posted hand, but possibly you are thinking about image and what fish can have in their range a little too much, instead focus on perhaps opening up more often, especially in position and then value betting hard when you do hit and try to get fish trapped in a TP vs second best hand spot more often.
 
P

ParasOsa

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Total posts
11
Chips
0
Thank you for the answer WiZZiM! Now I see a bigger picture of this hand. I didn't think about just calling because I'm dead vs 4, but yeah that minbet is practically a check, it could be a gutter or over or anything...
Pff I was running 28/22 3bet 8,0 until this table. Idk why I started playing so nitty in this table...
Anyway yes I will think more about that most important point you made about opening up and valuebetting more :)
 
Top