$109 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: 109 powerfest early levels

Here I didnt have too much reads on the players , after I opened QQ utg, ofc I tought about two options here, calling the 3bet and prolyl go 4way preflop or 4bet it up and prolly willing to get it in pre or on most boards post (ofc this prolly still depends on exact structure of board if the 3better flats my 4bet IP) but on how the board fell in the hand I would have stacked of always in a 4betpot which would have been likely HU vs 3better.

***** Hand History for Game 15860463431 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $109 USD Buy-in Trny:134498465 Level:1 Blinds-Antes(75/150 -25) - Sunday, February 05, 16:16:01 CET 2017
Table Powerfest #216 - $100,000 Gtd Freezeout (134498465) Table #5 (real money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9/9
Seat 8: B-5-12-9-5-22-E ( 34,486 )
Seat 4: BodgerTheBadger ( 25,116 )
Seat 7: KituMiJasi81 ( 29,375 )
Seat 3: LaChupacabra ( 31,300 )
Seat 5: Mirinek ( 30,000 )
Seat 2: Outplayed ( 32,875 )
Seat 9: UStillCanRun ( 29,375 )
Seat 1: kashmir_uzi ( 26,490 )
Seat 6: sweet_dreammm ( 28,123 )
Trny:134498465 Level:1
Blinds-Antes(75/150 -25)
kashmir_uzi posts ante [25]
Outplayed posts ante [25]
LaChupacabra posts ante [25]
BodgerTheBadger posts ante [25]
Mirinek posts ante [25]
sweet_dreammm posts ante [25]
KituMiJasi81 posts ante [25]
B-5-12-9-5-22-E posts ante [25]
UStillCanRun posts ante [25]
KituMiJasi81 posts small blind [75].
B-5-12-9-5-22-E posts big blind [150].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to UStillCanRun [ Qd Qc ]
UStillCanRun raises [375]
kashmir_uzi folds
Outplayed calls [375]
LaChupacabra raises [1,150]
BodgerTheBadger folds
Mirinek folds
sweet_dreammm folds
KituMiJasi81 calls [1,075]
B-5-12-9-5-22-E folds
UStillCanRun calls [775]
Outplayed calls [775]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 6s, 7d ]
KituMiJasi81 bets [2,487]
UStillCanRun will be using their time bank for this hand.
UStillCanRun folds

It costed my whole timebank here as the flop looks good for our hand in a vacuum, but just couldn't see the SB coldcalling many 3bets with either suited combo's or many Jx combo's, so it really made me believe he is most likely repping a set at this point, i also still have to slightly worry about players behind and whats my exact plan when I just call about that I wasn't sure either (still when I called preflop i tought my QQ would be the best hand most of the time, it was just I wasnt sure to 4bet it this early, I think looking backwards i should have), I have to say it was such a fckin hard laydown as I wasn't even planning pre to only setmine , so had to adapt given this situation.

Also even if he would have Jx would he lead out here? also hands like 88-TT dont seem to ever lead this flop

toughts please on this?

I actually dont have the Qs blocker, so maybe AQs could be in the range but thats just a tiny portion also maybe AKss if he doesnt4bet that, but that it, or weird played Aces and kings wich I would expect a 4bet from pre

With the Seat 3 squeeze being flatted by the SB plus the Seat 2 flat, there is a decent amount of dead money in this pot for me to 4-bet with QQ here to probably 5025 or so and gii if I get 5-bet. Then shove on this flop if my 4-bet was flatted. If I my 4-bet had been flatted by 1 player and the flop had 1 over, I'd bet/fold 4500. If my 4-bet was flatted by 2 players and the flop had an over I probably would not cbet.

Jillychemung said:

With the Seat 3 squeeze being flatted by the SB plus the Seat 2 flat, there is a decent amount of dead money in this pot for me to 4-bet with QQ here to probably 5025 or so and gii if I get 5-bet. Then shove on this flop if my 4-bet was flatted. If I my 4-bet had been flatted by 1 player and the flop had 1 over, I'd bet/fold 4500. If my 4-bet was flatted by 2 players and the flop had an over I probably would not cbet.

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Yes tyvm I do agree , I feel bad I didnt 4bet after you can imagine ty for the response!

absolutely 4 betting here... if either player has aces or kings, too bad, thats poker. but the squeeze looks weak, the flat call from seat 7 looks weak... (edit: not that weak, but compared to your hand, seat 7 should be 4 betting with AA or KK) you dont want to be playing this hand postflop oop unless you are the aggressor.

as played, post flop i just call him down. he donks froom oop... i dont know about these 109$ tournies, but in the games i play, this is super weak... hes doing this with a pair of jacks often enough that im never folding. if an ace or king or spade comes on turn or river youre in trouble and should fold then but as played id put villain on AJ, KJ or a spade flush draw. you dont want to raise him here because 1) you make worse hands fold, and 2) he only calls with better hands. by calling he often continues to build the pot with a worse hand

mbrenneman0 said:

absolutely 4 betting here... if either player has aces or kings, too bad, thats poker. but the squeeze looks weak, the flat call from seat 7 looks weak... (edit: not that weak, but compared to your hand, seat 7 should be 4 betting with AA or KK) you dont want to be playing this hand postflop oop unless you are the aggressor.

as played, post flop i just call him down. he donks froom oop... i dont know about these 109$ tournies, but in the games i play, this is super weak... hes doing this with a pair of jacks often enough that im never folding. if an ace or king or spade comes on turn or river youre in trouble and should fold then but as played id put villain on AJ, KJ or a spade flush draw. you dont want to raise him here because 1) you make worse hands fold, and 2) he only calls with better hands. by calling he often continues to build the pot with a worse hand

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Yes agreed TY for the response I posted it cause really was in doubt and even while I made an exceptional good laydown here postflopand this particular was a great result here t, it still felt very weakish 2 fold vs single bet on that flop, thats why i posted it Most other players told me same that they at least call once

I did put out the AJ and KJ0 cause they had to be ofsuit out of his range most of the time except 3 suited combos of both

I not yet looked this hand history, but I can say that I do not like 4-bet with QQ. Firstly, we are unlikely to knock out something from the range of 3-bet on the UTG. Secondly, we find ourselves in a difficult situation in the case of 5-bet all-in. Thirdly, we have a huge bank and have to pay the flop out even if came K-high or A-high board.

SuzdalDEcor said:

Secondly, we find ourselves in a difficult situation in the case of 5-bet all-in.

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snap call. theres a ton of overlay

Judging about playing of a player, he can do this raise with a 89 flush-draw (FD) or sets (KK and AA he must be pushed on the pre-flop). We do not rule AJ hands with backdoor FD, with 9T FD,A7 FD, 45 FD, hand 67 FD, AK FD. Everything else would play check. Judging by the range we are far ahead, so fold on the flop will be always a mistake. You must play check / call here and overestimate your opponent acts on the turn or just fold on the pre-flop if you do not want to get into complicated situations.

MasterOfDisaster said:

Here I didnt have too much reads on the players , after I opened QQ utg, ofc I tought about two options here, calling the 3bet and prolyl go 4way preflop or 4bet it up and prolly willing to get it in pre or on most boards post (ofc this prolly still depends on exact structure of board if the 3better flats my 4bet IP) but on how the board fell in the hand I would have stacked of always in a 4betpot which would have been likely HU vs 3better.

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I was looking this hand a bit and i do not get it, hero (UTG) playing really deep as said almost 200 BB deep (30k/t150=200BB). If hero would make 4bet preflop )which is good idea, to narrow the field and tighten villaine possible range), how you could tell most likely scenario could be HU vs 3bettor since almost everybody can call hero 4bet on preflop without being pot commited?

Regards,

Ambur

i prefer to get it all in with the top 3% of my range preflop whenever possible.

Easy 4-bet to the squeeze 3-bet, actually, you could do this with much worse holdings like AJ or AT profitably in these stakes, given the callers. I think I might fold to 5-bet shove, it's fairly early in the tournament and you can find less close spots.

On the flop, the board hits hard the BB range, he knows it and he bets and while his range is probably behind you (tons of draws in this textured board, would anybody lead a set here?), your hand is going to look bad on MOST turn runouts (spade, 8s, 5s, 3s, Ts, Js, As, Ks, the only blanks imo are 9s, 7s, 6s and 2s), without mentioning two players to act behind you, so we can clearly rule out calling in this spot.

Folding is an OK option, but... It's highly unlikely your hand is behind the aggressor in this spot, you are only behind JJ, J7, J6, 76, 77, 66, and AA (trapping pre). Not too many hands, any of them would lead OOP against 4 opponents. The 3bettor pre has AA, KK in his range, but you clearly don't need to have aces or kings to profitably squeeze in these spots with a raisor and a caller.

Best option in this spot is RAISING, for PURE VALUE (75-85% POT). I mean, what hands have you beat here? Charge them ****ing drawing hands. You even have enough JJ, 77, 66 in your range to put AA or KK in tough spots. This donk lead by the OOP player is imo a blessing to you, giving you the shot of correcting that passive mistake you make pre.

bbiase said:

I think I might fold to 5-bet shove, it's fairly early in the tournament and you can find less close spots.

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Plus 1. I would fold 5bet pre shove, since i believe i have edge over the field and note, it is deep stack play.

I like your overall comment, good things to think about.

mbrenneman0 said:

as played, post flop i just call him down. he donks froom oop... i dont know about these 109$ tournies, but in the games i play, this is super weak... hes doing this with a pair of jacks often enough that im never folding. if an ace or king or spade comes on turn or river youre in trouble and should fold then but as played id put villain on AJ, KJ or a spade flush draw. you dont want to raise him here because 1) you make worse hands fold, and 2) he only calls with better hands. by calling he often continues to build the pot with a worse hand

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I played some through satties. Action is squeeze happy all the way, which makes the flop call you suggested all the more bad w/ 2 guys two act behind and seat 7 flat tending to be in a much more specific range. It's pretty much the other way around. He probably has enough draws for this to be a profitable flop raise.

bbiase said:

I played some through satties. Action is squeeze happy all the way, which makes the flop call you suggested all the more bad w/ 2 guys two act behind and seat 7 flat tending to be in a much more specific range. It's pretty much the other way around. He probably has enough draws for this to be a profitable flop raise.

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when i hear people say you should bet for protection, i hear it in my head as "you should bet to make worse hands fold" ... thats not a good reason to bet.

you should bet against draws if you think theyll call with incorrect odds, otherwise, your just throwing money at the pot and making it that much harder to get away from it if they do get there. again, i havent played any 109s but i cant imagine theyre bad enough to be chasing flush draws with the wrong odds...

mbrenneman0 said:

you should bet against draws if you think theyll call with incorrect odds, otherwise, your just throwing money at the pot and making it that much harder to get away from it if they do get there. again, i havent played any 109s but i cant imagine theyre bad enough to be chasing flush draws with the wrong odds...

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It's not that simple with the "chasing draws with the wrong odds". It's about floating to rep a bigger hand later if the stacks are deep enough which is exactly the case, and that's because you, yourself have worse hands in you range than QQ in these raising spots. You, yourself definitely has hands that hands like JT-AJ beat in these spots when you raise, like suited connectors.

Also, every "protection" bet is a value bet. Protection bet is about denying equity of hands that can improve by the river. And it's not a bad reason to bet. It's really that simple:

If the pot is 100 dollars and the opponent's perceived range has 20% equity against your perceived range, everytime you don't bet for at least 20% of the pot you're giving your opponent 20 dollars for free. You can bet 30 to get 100 if he folds, you bet 30 to get 104 (0.8*130) if he calls or don't bet 30 to get 80, or worse, if you give the betting lead to the villain, where he has every shot of making you fold your equity by putting you in tough spots, when you want YOURSELF to be putting them in tough spots. What do you pick? Do you understand? The only way to profit above your current equity of the pot is by betting.

You don't want to give free equity. Specially on multiway pots. Calling is IMO, the worst play by far on this flop.

bbiase said:

It's not that simple with the "chasing draws with the wrong odds". It's about floating to rep a bigger hand later if the stacks are deep enough which is exactly the case, and that's because you, yourself have worse hands in you range than QQ in these raising spots. You, yourself definitely has hands that hands like JT-AJ beat in these spots when you raise, like suited connectors.

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could you explain what you mean by this?

Also, every "protection" bet is a value bet. Protection bet is about denying equity of hands that can improve by the river. And it's not a bad reason to bet. It's really that simple:

If the pot is 100 dollars and the opponent's perceived range has 20% equity against your perceived range, everytime you don't bet for at least 20% of the pot you're giving your opponent 20 dollars for free. You can bet 30 to get 100 if he folds, you bet 30 to get 104 (0.8*130) if he calls or don't bet 30 to get 80, or worse, if you give the betting lead to the villain, where he has every shot of making you fold your equity by putting you in tough spots, when you want YOURSELF to be putting them in tough spots. What do you pick? Do you understand?

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you're missing a key element here, and that is that villain is betting into us which is negative EV for him. if we just go to showdown right now wihtout any more money in the pot, we win 80% of the time, (going off your equity) that looks pretty good. if we bet enough to deny villain's equity, villain folds all of his flushdraws, we dont get any value out of that. we deny his 20% equity, but id rather let him keep that equity so that he makes another -EV play on the turn... and possibly another on the river. see, when a flush draw bets, it is only +EV if you assume you have a lot of fold equity, If we are never folding our Qs, and we shouldnt unless the board texture changes dramatically, then he is hanging himself and we should let him continue to hang himself on later streets.

The only way to profit above your current equity of the pot is by betting.

You don't want to give free equity. Specially on multiway pots. Calling is IMO, the worst play by far on this flop.

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You can also profit by allowing the villain to build a pot in which you own the majority of the equity.

folding is the worst play by far on this flop IMO, calling/betting is still up for debate haha.


and before you go thinking im a passive calling station, i have an average AFq of 70% but theres a time to be aggressive and theres a time to be passive, and when villain is betting into with a worse hand, i think thats a time to be passive.

I never ever bet for protect my hand strenght, i raise for value if i believe i have best hand. imo

4bet pre simple as that. imo

mbrenneman0 said:

could you explain what you mean by this?

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You work within your ranges. Your range in this spot is comprised by worse hands than QQ too. You, yourself could raise this flop with overpairs, but also with draws, top pairs and weaker bluffs. So, in your villain's shoes, he definitely could call with much worse made hands such as top pair, or 12+ outers like flush draws+gutshots, flushdraw+open ended, flush draws+overcards, pair+flush draw (and of course, better hands like sets and better overpairs. There's just much more combos of worse than better hands calling). And actually, we have one of the best QQ possible here, since we don't have the Qs, which would block AsQs, KsQs.

you're missing a key element here, and that is that villain is betting into us which is negative EV for him. if we just go to showdown right now wihtout any more money in the pot, we win 80% of the time, (going off your equity) that looks pretty good. if we bet enough to deny villain's equity, villain folds all of his flushdraws, we dont get any value out of that. we deny his 20% equity, but id rather let him keep that equity so that he makes another -EV play on the turn... and possibly another on the river. see, when a flush draw bets, it is only +EV if you assume you have a lot of fold equity, If we are never folding our Qs, and we shouldnt unless the board texture changes dramatically, then he is hanging himself and we should let him continue to hang himself on later streets.

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Thing is: you're not heads up, nor villain's folding many flush draws here. Specially the ones with overcards or straight flush draw outs. We also don't want to get squeezed by players the two players in position.

You can also profit by allowing the villain to build a pot in which you own the majority of the equity.

Yes, but again, you are simply ignoring the fact that the action doesn't close after your action. T

folding is the worst play by far on this flop IMO, calling/betting is still up for debate haha.

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Yes, but again, you are simply ignoring the fact that the action doesn't close after your action. The overpair is most likely good here, BUT, the vast majority of the runouts (A, K, J, T, 8, 5, all spades) deteriorates your hand so much that you can never get to bet for value, again: basically there's 27 turn runouts that will make your hand beat only a bluff and basically nothing out of the villain's value range. You probably won't be able to win this pot by calling, period, unless a miracle Q comes, or multiple blanks (and there are not too many blanks), and the call becomes much worse if one of the two players to act after you join the action.

This flop will PROBABLY BE THE LAST STREET WHERE YOU CAN BET FOR ABSOLUTE VALUE.

and before you go thinking im a passive calling station, i have an average AFq of 70% but theres a time to be aggressive and theres a time to be passive, and when villain is betting into with a worse hand, i think thats a time to be passive.

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Don't get me wrong: I'm all aboard this calling with extreme value, but I don't agree this is a fine spot to call, at all, our overpair is far from a monster in this board/4way to the flop. Call/Fold to flop squeeze? Call flop call turn fold river? I don't see us winning this pot. It's either fold or raise for value. Also, by raising here, you take the potential of our villain to bet his entire range the turn, as you take control of the action on turn and river while holding the optimal position as the other guys to act behind are most likely having to fold.

IMO, the best ways to play our range here in this flop, from best to worst:

Raise flop, bet turn (25~35% pot), check river.
Raise flop, call the flop aggressor 3-bet shove.
Raise flop, fold to the preflop aggressor flop 3-bet shove.
Raise flop, check turn, call/check river.
Fold.
Raise flop, check turn, fold river.
Call flop, bet/raise blank turns/fold most turns.

still I wonder why you all put AJo KJo etc in his 3bet coldcallrange pre from the SB as I wonder if the ones responding here would make that call in that spot from that position,(he still should worry from a 4bet from me and I can only see hands that have very good implieds calling 4way here in this spot (if he expects to go 4way the AJo and KJo don't play very well OOP in a 3betpot) I snapfold lay them down in general pre there. Also if he calls these hands pre which is ofc a bad mistake, who says he leads these multiway.

Who thinks this play from SB with Jxo braodways pre would be a mistake and who doesnt? (except JJ ofc) this is just a few combo's with J on board also.
And if you think this is a mistake and you have no reason to assume he would make this mistake, would you put these hands in his range?

Also dont get me wrong about the play , i know I should have 4betted it and thats the right play now, but still ranging players here in a 3betpot preflop is where our thinking proces is different.