$10 NLHE MTT Rebuy: Which play would have been better?

seeyouthru · Mar 9, 2019

SO A REBUY+ADDON TOURNAMENT, 30 MIN TILL ADDON TIME!
BLINDS 50/100 10ante.
NO SPECIFIC READS ON OPPONENT ALL UNKNOWS, ONLY THING I KNOW THAT PLAYERS GENERALLY ARE LOOSE AND MORE TOWARDS CALLING IT OFF!
SO V1 (24 BB STACK) OPENS 2.8X UTG,
V2 (94 BB STACK) FLATS BEHIND.
HERO ON CUTOFF WITH POCKET 10s (20BB STACK) GOES ALL IN!
V1 CALLS WITH JKs and V2 ALSO CALLS WITH J10o!
POCKET 10S DONT HOLD!

PRETTY TOUGH SPOT THERE FOR ME, REALLY CANT FLAT BEHIND MULTIWAY ON FLOP WITH SHALLOW STACK AND WASN"T COMFORTABLE WITH 3 BETTING AS I FELT THAT BOTH VILLIAN WILL CALL WHICH THEY EVENTUALLY DID!
WAS THIS THE RIGHT PLAY AND WHAT SHOULD HAVE I DONE IN THIS SPOT?

sedlacekj · Mar 9, 2019

Hi,

I know late in the tourney (20 blinds or less) going all-in with TT is acceptable, but this should be done only if the action folded to you. Since the UTG raised, and another called, I would either fold or proceed cautiously. TT is hard to win if both early players are leading with only broadway cards. All the broadway cards beat 10. Another technique is to raise 2 or 2.5 BB, and see what develops. If you get called, you still see the flop without being all-in. Then you make a decision based on the flop. If you get re-raised, you fold and live longer in the tourney, and maybe go all-in with a better hand. This approach might be best especially if your villains are mostly calling everything. It is better to continue with 17 BB and move up a level.

tmfnsanders · Mar 11, 2019

TT 30 minutes til addon? raise and flat in front? post ante 20bb stack?

This is a beautiful shove spot. Tons of dead money in the pot if it folds everyone out increasing your stack by 40%. They call lighter in the rebuy period so you might end up with great odds to triple up and then some. They also possibly share outs if we're up against like AK and AQ.

And if we run bad we click the double rebuy button and get them next time.

edit, just realized you got in vs KJs and JT. This alone should tell you how perfect this spot was to shove in. You triple up here 45% of the time. I don't think you can have much better multi way all in preflop.

seeyouthru · Mar 11, 2019

tmfnsanders said:
TT 30 minutes til addon? raise and flat in front? post ante 20bb stack?

This is a beautiful shove spot. Tons of dead money in the pot if it folds everyone out increasing your stack by 40%. They call lighter in the rebuy period so you might end up with great odds to triple up and then some. They also possibly share outs if we're up against like AK and AQ.

And if we run bad we click the double rebuy button and get them next time.

Do you think 3 bet and see a flop in position is good!

tmfnsanders · Mar 11, 2019

seeyouthru said:
Do you think 3 bet and see a flop in position is good!

Not trying to be mean but that is worse than folding. 3betting would need to be 650 or so maybe even more since there's already 2 in the pot before you. If you're putting that much in the pot from a 2k stack, you REALLY need to be just piling it all in the middle to maximize your fold equity and realize your hand equity if called.

I appreciate the fact like you like to play position, but that really only works if you have a deep enough stack to be able play postflop. Now that I think about it I might even be ok with a flatcall strictly for setmining since it's multiway off your 20bb stack and fold if you miss. If someone that acts behind raises it, I would get it in vs 1 or 2 people, fold vs 3?

so I guess my preference would be

3bet shove>Flatcall/Setmine>Fold>standard 3bet

5pAce_C0wb0y · Mar 11, 2019

Yes getting it all in here was the correct play. If my maths is right there's about 800 in the pot when action comes to you, flat calling doesn't show any strength so is going to leave you difficult decisions on flop if those ahead of you show aggression. If you choose to 3 bet your looking at 700 to 800 bet leaving you 1200 behind if you get called or reraised and you elect to fold. Let's say you 3 bet 800 both players elect to call, so now 2600 ish in the pot, now come the flop you have 2 options fold or all in. So best option is the all in pre flop as with 20bb there is plenty of fold equity and more often than not will end up profitably by inducing folds or by the 10's holding.

Matt Vaughan · Mar 11, 2019

tmfnsanders posts are 100% on point. This is a dream scenario for us to rip it with 10's. We're not exactly rooting for those calls but when we get them our eyes should be bugging out of our skull at how good a spot we are in for a triple up!

bzvz222 · Mar 12, 2019

tmfnsanders said:
TT 30 minutes til addon? raise and flat in front? post ante 20bb stack?

This is a beautiful shove spot. Tons of dead money in the pot if it folds everyone out increasing your stack by 40%. They call lighter in the rebuy period so you might end up with great odds to triple up and then some. They also possibly share outs if we're up against like AK and AQ.

And if we run bad we click the double rebuy button and get them next time.

edit, just realized you got in vs KJs and JT. This alone should tell you how perfect this spot was to shove in. You triple up here 45% of the time. I don't think you can have much better multi way all in preflop.

It's a shove, no brainer. 45 percent is a lot on this spot and this specific situation.

Ianmacca99 · Mar 15, 2019

I think this is correct I would do exactly the same. Rebuys tourneys are wild before the time is up so you have a great chance of a triple up. Really don't like 3 betting there. Maximise the fold equity and pile it in just a bad result. Folding would be out of the question. Flatting would be the 2nd best for me but what if one of the opponents behind 3 bets or piles it in. Take command and continue to stick it in

eetenor · Mar 19, 2019

No Dead Money.

tmfnsanders said:
TT 30 minutes til addon? raise and flat in front? post ante 20bb stack?

This is a beautiful shove spot. Tons of dead money in the pot if it folds everyone out increasing your stack by 40%. They call lighter in the rebuy period so you might end up with great odds to triple up and then some. They also possibly share outs if we're up against like AK and AQ.

And if we run bad we click the double rebuy button and get them next time.

edit, just realized you got in vs KJs and JT. This alone should tell you how perfect this spot was to shove in. You triple up here 45% of the time. I don't think you can have much better multi way all in preflop.

Your advice is sound about shoving and rebuying. As your equity statement demonstrated if it is a mistake to shove it is a very small one.

Your first statement regarding dead money is flawed. The poster mentioned no one folds and the two callers proved that read to be correct. There is no fold equity therefore considering that as a catalyst for action is incorrect.

Fold equity as a driver for shoving vs raising or flatting is however a great point in games where fold equity exists.

Thank you for your insights.

tmfnsanders · Mar 20, 2019

eetenor said:
Your advice is sound about shoving and rebuying. As your equity statement demonstrated if it is a mistake to shove it is a very small one.

Your first statement regarding dead money is flawed. The poster mentioned no one folds and the two callers proved that read to be correct. There is no fold equity therefore considering that as a catalyst for action is incorrect.

Fold equity as a driver for shoving vs raising or flatting is however a great point in games where fold equity exists.

Thank you for your insights.

Fold equity always exists in spots like these. There is always some chance greater than 0 that one or both opponents will fold, and the small sample size of a few levels of 1 tournament isn't going to provide strong enough reads to eliminate that consideration. We don't just blindly take a poster's perceived reads into account when the poster could be being results oriented, or just making things up to plead their case. The reads still have to make sense.

I do think I might have misunderstood that part of the OP though. I was thinking he meant that no one is going to put 2.8bb in and then fold to a standard 3bet. To me a 3bet shove is a completely different thing than when someone just says 3bet.

Either way though. I still think it's a great shove spot, and I still think there's dead money there because they have to fold some portion of their opening/calling range. And if not we have wayyyyy more than enough equity if we keep their entire ranges in play.

eetenor · Mar 20, 2019

Good Points

tmfnsanders said:
Fold equity always exists in spots like these. There is always some chance greater than 0 that one or both opponents will fold, and the small sample size of a few levels of 1 tournament isn't going to provide strong enough reads to eliminate that consideration. We don't just blindly take a poster's perceived reads into account when the poster could be being results oriented, or just making things up to plead their case. The reads still have to make sense.

I do think I might have misunderstood that part of the OP though. I was thinking he meant that no one is going to put 2.8bb in and then fold to a standard 3bet. To me a 3bet shove is a completely different thing than when someone just says 3bet.

Either way though. I still think it's a great shove spot, and I still think there's dead money there because they have to fold some portion of their opening/calling range. And if not we have wayyyyy more than enough equity if we keep their entire ranges in play.

Thanks for sharing.

Your insights caused me to dive deeper into my own perceptions of fold equity vs player pools. I do agree, we have to not make 100% statements based on less than 100% information.

To be 100% clear the 1010 hand from the original post is a shove regardless of fold equity.

I was thinking about other situations and what % chance of fold equity must be present in the player pool for a shove to be correct. It is a complex reflection, I will tell you what I learn in a couple of years.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

seeyouthru · Mar 20, 2019

eetenor said:
Thanks for sharing.

Your insights caused me to dive deeper into my own perceptions of fold equity vs player pools. I do agree, we have to not make 100% statements based on less than 100% information.

To be 100% clear the 1010 hand from the original post is a shove regardless of fold equity.

I was thinking about other situations and what % chance of fold equity must be present in the player pool for a shove to be correct. It is a complex reflection, I will tell you what I learn in a couple of years.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Deep in tourney is when effective stack soze os short and spr is low!

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$10 NLHE MTT Rebuy: Which play would have been better?

seeyouthru

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sedlacekj

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seeyouthru

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5pAce_C0wb0y

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