$10 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: 3 bet shove or fold

ignition $8000GTD 10k starting stack 10 minute blinds

Blinds are 150/300 Ante 30

UTG+1 16396 behind
raises 805

HERO UTG+2 I have QQ and 22465 behind
Re-raise 2000

UTG+3 12445 behind
ALL IN

Everyone folds back to me and I'm not sure of what to do in this spot I hadn't been at the table long so I had no read. Is it a spot where i'm flipping or am I crushed against AA KK

I don't know what you should do when you play it like that. I think I would have made my 3-bet bigger (about 4x) and fold to a reshove. By 3-betting bigger you let your opponent know you have a realy strong hand. If he still decides to shove, I think you are only facing AKs, AA and KK (maybe QQ, but that's very unlikely). By 3-betting smaller I think he might shove a little wider. But given that he shoves 40BB's I think it is a fold since we don't know the villain.

What sizing would you have used on the 3bet?

5thkking said:

What sizing would you have used on the 3bet?

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Think about it this way, utg opens 805 into a pot of 720 (assuming there are 9players)

This makes a pot of 1525 a pot size bet would be 805+2330. (You have to call his bet then raise the pot)

So at the very minimum a good 3bet size is around 3200.

In a tournament you could bet slightly less 2750-3500, in a cash game you could raise it up more 4500ish.

A normal 3bet sizing here would be 2200-2400 considering we are ~50bb eff deep.

Roockie4Life said:

I don't know what you should do when you play it like that. I think I would have made my 3-bet bigger (about 4x) and fold to a reshove. By 3-betting bigger you let your opponent know you have a realy strong hand. If he still decides to shove, I think you are only facing AKs, AA and KK (maybe QQ, but that's very unlikely). By 3-betting smaller I think he might shove a little wider. But given that he shoves 40BB's I think it is a fold since we don't know the villain.

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This is awful logic. When we 3bet, why would we be making it large (4x the raise size) to show we have a strong hand? All this does is fold out many of V's worse hands that would otherwise flat call. By your logic, we should be 3B/folding A2s to this size because V is only going to 4bet shove a range of KK+/AK and 3betting almost any hand here will be extremely profitable. 3Betting 4x the raise to this size only to fold w/ QQ is straight up bad.

I make it 2250 pre and call off the cold 4bet shove.

Any observations on the player?
I would fold, because I wouldn't put the guy on AK. It's tough to make an all in with two agressorrs. I would put him in the range of JJ+, so the chances to have AA or KK are pretty big.
To 3-bet x2.5 or x4 is pretty much the same in this phase of the tournament.

mcgregor_415 said:

Any observations on the player?
I would fold, because I wouldn't put the guy on AK. It's tough to make an all in with two agressorrs. I would put him in the range of JJ+, so the chances to have AA or KK are pretty big.
To 3-bet x2.5 or x4 is pretty much the same in this phase of the tournament.

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AK is definitely in the cold 4bet shover's range, and hand combinations would dictate villain will show up with AK here most of the time should that be in his range. (There are 6 combos of KK, 6 combos of AA, 1 combo of QQ, 6 combos of JJ, and 16 combos of AK.)

Against a range of JJ+ AK, QQ has 47.37% equity, even against the range of JJ+ you gave we still have 40% equity.

Considering we need 39.5% equity to call off here, it doesn't make sense for you to give him a range of JJ+ and then say you would fold.

trent32la said:

A normal 3bet sizing here would be 2200-2400 considering we are ~50bb eff deep.

This is awful logic. When we 3bet, why would we be making it large (4x the raise size) to show we have a strong hand? All this does is fold out many of V's worse hands that would otherwise flat call. By your logic, we should be 3B/folding A2s to this size because V is only going to 4bet shove a range of KK+/AK and 3betting almost any hand here will be extremely profitable. 3Betting 4x the raise to this size only to fold w/ QQ is straight up bad.

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Thanks for your comment and sharing your thoughts on my opinion. I can only learn from more experienced players

trent32la said:

A normal 3bet sizing here would be 2200-2400 considering we are ~50bb eff deep.

I make it 2250 pre and call off the cold 4bet shove.

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Why 3bet smaller to just call off a cold 4bet shove? Hero has ~75bb. Villain has ~50
With a raise to 2250 pre UTG has the right equity to call your 3bet with a range of (22+,A2s+) vs QQ. Heck even (10+,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,43s,32s,AQo+) vs QQ has good equity to call.

There are a lot of good reasons to 3bet smaller with a hand like QQ while deep stacked in a tournament. You can play more streets, safely, in position - while giving your opponent good odds to find rope to hang himself.

By saying 3bet small and cold call 4bet shoves, are you advocating 3betting small hoping to induce an all in shove from a perceived weak 3bet?

I think betting smaller pre flop is to leverage a better postflop game, where betting more preflop helps leverage better ranges.

Just my 2 cents (and I won it here folks)

Deep enough to fold this here. Opponent is representing great strength here if this a 9 handed table. A 6 handed or fewer table I consider calling.
Once I am this deep stacked I flat an early raise a lot when at new table since I got no feel or stats on anyone. I just take a conservation approach in general when at new table until I can get a read on players.

Thanks for all the input I appreciate it! I thought about it and since I was so deep I just let it go. Good news tho two hands later I had 88 and he had AK on a flop of 88A and I got all his chips

5thkking said:

Thanks for all the input I appreciate it! I thought about it and since I was so deep I just let it go. Good news tho two hands later I had 88 and he had AK on a flop of 88A and I got all his chips

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WP Cheers:joyman: