$1 NLHE STT: Fold to 4bet?

EvertonGirl

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Full Tilt - $1|30/60 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 1,945 (VPIP: 34.62, PFR: 4.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 27)
BTN: 890 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 27)
SB: 1,245 (VPIP: 14.81, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
BB: 980 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 27)
UTG: 1,930 (VPIP: 18.52, PFR: 3.85, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 27)
UTG+1: 3,615 (VPIP: 25.93, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 27)
MP: 1,035 (VPIP: 29.63, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 27)
Hero (MP+1): 1,860

SB posts SB 30, BB posts BB 60

Pre Flop: (pot: 90) Hero has J J

UTG raises to 120, fold, fold, Hero raises to 360, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to 1,930 and is all-in, Hero?
 
Lucothefish

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easy fold and I'm not 3betting there either
 
ribaric

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definnetly fold he may have better pair than you
 
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WiZZiM

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best to just flat this preflop, otherwise we are bluffing with possibly the best hand.

we need to have a basic plan laid out when we decide to do something. This guy is a tight looking player thus far, raising from UTG in a format which is pretty tight in opening raise ranges but loose in limping ranges typically. So when we decide to 3bet, we need to know exactly what we will do if he calls/4bets as that is what we leave him with when we make our decision.

By calling, and playing it very passively and somewhat weak. We get to see a flop and then decide how many chips we want to invest. Generally though, since were facing a tight UTG range, our hand strenth diminishes, so basically i treat this hand like i'm playing 88-99, so we're looking for cheap showdowns and to obviously hit our set postflop. Unless we hit our set or we have a very strong read on this player, we're never really looking to get it all in postflop.

The reason players are able to play 10-30 SNGs at a time is due to the fact that they think about decisions like this away from the table, so if you want to get deeper in this spot, think about what happens at this rough stack depth when we 3bet and he calls, think of it like a decision tree. If we flat call, his decision tree is very limited, whereas ours becomes much wider depending on action behind us. With 3betting, his decision tree narrows and our decision tree narrows also. So if i'm thinking about this spot....

If i flat call - we can get to a flop cheaply, possibly flop a set, we get to decide to put more chips in on favourable flops as his range is very capped here AQ-TT maybe AJ-AT KQ, so it will be an easy hand/flop to read postflop and we almost always know where we are in the hand.

if i 3bet - if he folds, how many chips do we pick up? is it worth the risk vs a tight range and how much does he likely fold. Lets do some quick math to work out how much equity we make here.

if i 3bet and he flat calls - Flop will be 6-700 and we have only around 1k chips left. JJ faces overcards roughly 30-40% of the time and we are still vs his original tight range, folding out maybe the outside hands like KQ AT-AJ but they also might possibly call as players in this level are typically bad. This seems like a really akward decision tree i've left myself in and i want to avoid this as we're getting close to being pot committed and we commit ourselves on dry flops with no overs. The plus side might be that we can assume he 4bets hands like QQ+ AK so it possibly narrows his range slightly when he just calls, and it tends to be weaker, but again it's a low level, so players can still flat with those hands to trap or because he's scared.

if he 4bets- Can we call it off? what is the math needed. IT seems like we have to fold as his range narrows from above, to something like AQ+ TT+ at the absolute widest, vs that range we don't do particularly well, so we're almost always calling behind, however we are getting pot odds here also, so lets work out if it's a profitable call spot.


After i go through decision trees like that, you also want to think about other things like how easy or hard it is to pick up chips in future hands. The easier it is the more you want to avoid these situations and make them very low variance spots. The harder it is the more willing you want to be to take on high variance plays.

Sorry for the babble, but doing this away from the tables will really help you in game, and you will be able to play more tables once you do this for a ton of differant situations in the early/mid game. Just like in the late game where we train ourselves to jam a proper amount of hands for the situation, we also want to train ourselves to be able to deal with any situation really quickly and simply.

anyways hopefully this helps.
 
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ibetmyho

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Ok so villain has raised UTG and seems pretty tight with a PFR of only 3.85, with both of you being fairly healthy with 30 bbs
I would definitely flat my jacks pre flop.
Once you raise I think you should fold as typically an UTG raiser with tight stats will only 4bet a range consisting of QQ,KK,AA and AK.
Unless you have a read he's capable of craziness I would fold.
 
EvertonGirl

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best to just flat this preflop, otherwise we are bluffing with possibly the best hand.

we need to have a basic plan laid out when we decide to do something. This guy is a tight looking player thus far, raising from UTG in a format which is pretty tight in opening raise ranges but loose in limping ranges typically. So when we decide to 3bet, we need to know exactly what we will do if he calls/4bets as that is what we leave him with when we make our decision.

By calling, and playing it very passively and somewhat weak. We get to see a flop and then decide how many chips we want to invest. Generally though, since were facing a tight UTG range, our hand strenth diminishes, so basically i treat this hand like i'm playing 88-99, so we're looking for cheap showdowns and to obviously hit our set postflop. Unless we hit our set or we have a very strong read on this player, we're never really looking to get it all in postflop.

The reason players are able to play 10-30 SNGs at a time is due to the fact that they think about decisions like this away from the table, so if you want to get deeper in this spot, think about what happens at this rough stack depth when we 3bet and he calls, think of it like a decision tree. If we flat call, his decision tree is very limited, whereas ours becomes much wider depending on action behind us. With 3betting, his decision tree narrows and our decision tree narrows also. So if i'm thinking about this spot....

If i flat call - we can get to a flop cheaply, possibly flop a set, we get to decide to put more chips in on favourable flops as his range is very capped here AQ-TT maybe AJ-AT KQ, so it will be an easy hand/flop to read postflop and we almost always know where we are in the hand.

if i 3bet - if he folds, how many chips do we pick up? is it worth the risk vs a tight range and how much does he likely fold. Lets do some quick math to work out how much equity we make here.

if i 3bet and he flat calls - Flop will be 6-700 and we have only around 1k chips left. JJ faces overcards roughly 30-40% of the time and we are still vs his original tight range, folding out maybe the outside hands like KQ AT-AJ but they also might possibly call as players in this level are typically bad. This seems like a really akward decision tree i've left myself in and i want to avoid this as we're getting close to being pot committed and we commit ourselves on dry flops with no overs. The plus side might be that we can assume he 4bets hands like QQ+ AK so it possibly narrows his range slightly when he just calls, and it tends to be weaker, but again it's a low level, so players can still flat with those hands to trap or because he's scared.

if he 4bets- Can we call it off? what is the math needed. IT seems like we have to fold as his range narrows from above, to something like AQ+ TT+ at the absolute widest, vs that range we don't do particularly well, so we're almost always calling behind, however we are getting pot odds here also, so lets work out if it's a profitable call spot.


After i go through decision trees like that, you also want to think about other things like how easy or hard it is to pick up chips in future hands. The easier it is the more you want to avoid these situations and make them very low variance spots. The harder it is the more willing you want to be to take on high variance plays.

Sorry for the babble, but doing this away from the tables will really help you in game, and you will be able to play more tables once you do this for a ton of differant situations in the early/mid game. Just like in the late game where we train ourselves to jam a proper amount of hands for the situation, we also want to train ourselves to be able to deal with any situation really quickly and simply.

anyways hopefully this helps.

Thanks for the babble :D I will have to re-read it over again and it takes a while for it all to sink in :)

I did fold to his 4bet as he was very passive. With his min-raise UTG I wanted to see if he flats my 3bet or shoves, obviously if he flatted I would of crossed off QQ+ and AK and put him more on AQ, AJ but as he shoved made me think that he had a stronger pair than mine and it only cost me 360 chips. Later on he was in a similar situation with another guy who 5bet shoved him all in and he showed AA, the other guy had A7s :eek: wasn't expecting that :D
 
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joe777

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Fold,villain is a nit and i think your hand is being dominated already with villain range QQ+KK+.
 
Delvuter

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I like to 3-bet from time to time about 7% just like the strategy articles suggest. You 3-bet fold a couple few times and eventually you can 3-bet with something like KK or AA and villain will be more inclined to 4-bet and you can sweep 'em. If we never 3-bet our 3-bet range becomes transparent.
 
EvertonGirl

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Fold,villain is a nit and i think your hand is being dominated already with villain range QQ+KK+.

I wouldn't call him a nit, I call a nit being <15 VPIP, he was slightly over that so he is definitely a tight player and with his PF being less than half his VPIP he is very passive so I agree the fold to his 4bet was definitely correct as he more than likely had AA, KK and possibly QQ :)
 
EvertonGirl

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I like to 3-bet from time to time about 7% just like the strategy articles suggest. You 3-bet fold a couple few times and eventually you can 3-bet with something like KK or AA and villain will be more inclined to 4-bet and you can sweep 'em. If we never 3-bet our 3-bet range becomes transparent.

Yea I agree with this, I was playing a tight game so I like to 3bet now and then and I believe jacks aren't too bad to try and get a 3bet through :)
 
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best to just flat this preflop, otherwise we are bluffing with possibly the best hand.

we need to have a basic plan laid out when we decide to do something. This guy is a tight looking player thus far, raising from UTG in a format which is pretty tight in opening raise ranges but loose in limping ranges typically. So when we decide to 3bet, we need to know exactly what we will do if he calls/4bets as that is what we leave him with when we make our decision.

By calling, and playing it very passively and somewhat weak. We get to see a flop and then decide how many chips we want to invest. Generally though, since were facing a tight UTG range, our hand strenth diminishes, so basically i treat this hand like i'm playing 88-99, so we're looking for cheap showdowns and to obviously hit our set postflop. Unless we hit our set or we have a very strong read on this player, we're never really looking to get it all in postflop.

The reason players are able to play 10-30 SNGs at a time is due to the fact that they think about decisions like this away from the table, so if you want to get deeper in this spot, think about what happens at this rough stack depth when we 3bet and he calls, think of it like a decision tree. If we flat call, his decision tree is very limited, whereas ours becomes much wider depending on action behind us. With 3betting, his decision tree narrows and our decision tree narrows also. So if i'm thinking about this spot....

If i flat call - we can get to a flop cheaply, possibly flop a set, we get to decide to put more chips in on favourable flops as his range is very capped here AQ-TT maybe AJ-AT KQ, so it will be an easy hand/flop to read postflop and we almost always know where we are in the hand.

if i 3bet - if he folds, how many chips do we pick up? is it worth the risk vs a tight range and how much does he likely fold. Lets do some quick math to work out how much equity we make here.

if i 3bet and he flat calls - Flop will be 6-700 and we have only around 1k chips left. JJ faces overcards roughly 30-40% of the time and we are still vs his original tight range, folding out maybe the outside hands like KQ AT-AJ but they also might possibly call as players in this level are typically bad. This seems like a really akward decision tree i've left myself in and i want to avoid this as we're getting close to being pot committed and we commit ourselves on dry flops with no overs. The plus side might be that we can assume he 4bets hands like QQ+ AK so it possibly narrows his range slightly when he just calls, and it tends to be weaker, but again it's a low level, so players can still flat with those hands to trap or because he's scared.

if he 4bets- Can we call it off? what is the math needed. IT seems like we have to fold as his range narrows from above, to something like AQ+ TT+ at the absolute widest, vs that range we don't do particularly well, so we're almost always calling behind, however we are getting pot odds here also, so lets work out if it's a profitable call spot.


After i go through decision trees like that, you also want to think about other things like how easy or hard it is to pick up chips in future hands. The easier it is the more you want to avoid these situations and make them very low variance spots. The harder it is the more willing you want to be to take on high variance plays.

Sorry for the babble, but doing this away from the tables will really help you in game, and you will be able to play more tables once you do this for a ton of differant situations in the early/mid game. Just like in the late game where we train ourselves to jam a proper amount of hands for the situation, we also want to train ourselves to be able to deal with any situation really quickly and simply.

anyways hopefully this helps.
this is why you're one of my favorite posters on this site. I learn so much from your posts and it just improves my overall thinking and approach to the game.
 
EvertonGirl

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this is why you're one of my favorite posters on this site. I learn so much from your posts and it just improves my overall thinking and approach to the game.

+1

Love reading his input.
 
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this is why you're one of my favorite posters on this site. I learn so much from your posts and it just improves my overall thinking and approach to the game.

+1

Love reading his input.

cool :) hope it helps. keep posting those hands, i don't play poker anymore but still love to talk crap about it :D
 
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WiZZiM

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Don't really enjoy playing anymore, I get bored easily and prefer to be doing other things for enjoyment.
 
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ph_il

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Don't really enjoy playing anymore, I get bored easily and prefer to be doing other things for enjoyment.
I get that feeling a lot, too. Mostly from online play.

Do you still play live? I feel like live > online because its less frequent and I dont get as bored with it as easily.
 
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WiZZiM

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Yeah i'm looking to play some bigger live events next year, i really want to play the aussie millions, but not sure i wanna invest that much into one tournament, might as well go play the main event if i'm gonna spend 10k on one buyin haha.
 
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ph_il

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Yeah i'm looking to play some bigger live events next year, i really want to play the aussie millions, but not sure i wanna invest that much into one tournament, might as well go play the main event if i'm gonna spend 10k on one buyin haha.
staking thread? I'd invest monies in you.
 
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