$1 NLHE MTT Rebuy: 77: flopping top set on a 3-flush board against 2 players

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AviCKter

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Just a cooler. Played fine, no better way to play it.
 
rikoberto

rikoberto

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https://www.boomplayer.com/25539919_769CA3CA53

What happens after the river, will shock you all! (clickbait title intended)

But seriously though, I'm more interested in how did I play the hand until the river.

Hey Satiivas..i would like to see a flop cbet in this monotone board against 2 villains, as any club,5 or 8 would throw a lot your equity of your top set..but as you played i cant say that i disagree..Obviously this hand is a cooler and there is no fold on river from your side..Gl next time :)
 
A

AviCKter

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Hey Satiivas..i would like to see a flop cbet in this monotone board against 2 villains, as any club,5 or 8 would throw a lot your equity of your top set..but as you played i cant say that i disagree..Obviously this hand is a cooler and there is no fold on river from your side..Gl next time :)

monotone = dull?

This board is as wet as it can get; it has flush, it has straight. And what's the point of c-betting? C-betting can lead to few possible outcomes:
1. Both opponents fold.
2. SB calls or BB calls.
3. SB calls and BB calls.
4. SB re-raises/BB folds or SB re-raises/BB calls or SB re-raises/BB 3-bets.
5. SB folds/BB re-raises.

Now tell me again, how does our c-betting helps us? What ranges do you assign on each of the outcomes? And what is the game plan once we make the c-bet?
 
masik6

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Yes, everything is made right here in any case, Alan would be who could have known that he had a straight flush on the flop I would have played more similarly 20 times would have won 18 times.
 
rikoberto

rikoberto

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monotone = dull?

This board is as wet as it can get; it has flush, it has straight. And what's the point of c-betting? C-betting can lead to few possible outcomes:
1. Both opponents fold.
2. SB calls or BB calls.
3. SB calls and BB calls.
4. SB re-raises/BB folds or SB re-raises/BB calls or SB re-raises/BB 3-bets.
5. SB folds/BB re-raises.

Now tell me again, how does our c-betting helps us? What ranges do you assign on each of the outcomes? And what is the game plan once we make the c-bet?

Hey my friend..First of all i said in post that i dont disagree with his play..its very logical and reasonable and i would do exactly the same but with a frequency not always.In Poker,some spots can be played with more than one way and i am sure you know it thats why i am doing the black sheep in this thread..
So,to the point now: there are tone of hands that u can make villains fold (especially in BB's calling range) which potentially can cause u problems and by C-betting you dont let them realise their equity..Some examples are:23s,59s,T8s(all these no clubs),A3o,23o,34,many 8x hands such as A8o,K8o,J8o,Q8o,T8o..in general hands which has gutshot..there are other group of hands which can cause u problem such as low offsuit cards with 1 club..Example:,A9o-ATo,K9o-KTo,Q9o-QTo,J9o-JTo all these hands with the lower card of them club..As u can see all these, are many combinations and easily can be in their range when button opens 2,1x and sb and bb can call almost any 2 because of super pot odds..When you dont bet in flop,you let all these marginal hands to improve in turn (that normally would fold),as you let with no cost all the monster flushdraws/straighdraws which wouldnt fold anyway as they have lot of equity and we afraid of check/raise..Finally there are also some hands that you extract value,without fear such as 44,66,99,67,and Q7o-A7o,K6o-A6o that can call one street and then they will fold in overcard..So i think i answered you how cbet is helping you in this situation..PS:about ur 5 ranges you asked me,i think its practically impossible to write in a post..i think you get my point of view.I will be here for more dialogue..:)
 
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On the flop it's possible that someone has a made flush or straight, more likely that someone is drawing, and most likely that no one has a draw.

If we say the SB is calling with 25% [22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,A2o+,KTo+] of his hands and the BB with 35% [22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q8s+,J9s+,A2o+,K5o+,QTo+] (the BB is likely to call wider since he is getting better pot odds), our equity is ~67% on the flop.

If I tighten it up to SB 15% [33+,A4s+,KTs+,A8o+] and BB 25%, our equity is still ~67%. This is a strange situation where the wider our opponents' pre-flop range is, the less equity we have, because much of our opponents' equity comes from straights that require low cards.

Anyway, we have two opponents, we are solidly ahead of their ranges, and we have a vulnerable hand. I bet the flop, for both value and protection.

In the actual hand hero was doomed to lose his stack whether he bet the flop or not.
 
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PS:about ur 5 ranges you asked me,i think its practically impossible to write in a post..i think you get my point of view.I will be here for more dialogue..:)

Yes, a hand can always be played multiple ways, provided the outcome of all those multiple ways be equal.

I'm not trying to beat you, I was only trying to make you organize your thoughts, nothing more. When analyzing a spot, you have to be very careful not to see a hand in exclusion, you have to consider future action. As off the ranges, its difficult, but not impossible, and we should work on that. That's how we become better players, no?


If we say the SB is calling with 25% [22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,A2o+,KTo+] of his hands and the BB with 35% [22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q8s+,J9s+,A2o+,K5o+,QTo+] (the BB is likely to call wider since he is getting better pot odds), our equity is ~67% on the flop.

If I tighten it up to SB 15% [33+,A4s+,KTs+,A8o+] and BB 25%, our equity is still ~67%.

That's not a sound flatting range, by giving them those ranges, you're basically neglecting their 3-betting ranges.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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That's not a sound flatting range, by giving them those ranges, you're basically neglecting their 3-betting ranges.

True, I overlooked that, thank you.

When I lop off the tops of those ranges, I still get ~67% equity for the hero on the flop. 67 seems to be a magic number that is always the answer until I add a bunch of low card junk to ranges, in which case it goes to 60%. Weird.

So I still say we should bet for value and protection.
 
rikoberto

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Yes, a hand can always be played multiple ways, provided the outcome of all those multiple ways be equal.

I'm not trying to beat you, I was only trying to make you organize your thoughts, nothing more. When analyzing a spot, you have to be very careful not to see a hand in exclusion, you have to consider future action. As off the ranges, its difficult, but not impossible, and we should work on that. That's how we become better players, no?



Yes my friend..i didnt take your question as a chance for conflict..:)..All we try here to share opinions,ways of how to play our hands,our potential leaks etc..I understand and i agree with you, that at my first post i didnt explain why i would like to see a cbet (for space economy of post),so it sounds like a sentence without logic and arguments..Thats why i put in second post the ranges of villain that could cause us problems by no c-betting and i think that my point of view is reasonable and ''range logical''..About 5 ranges now:yes its not impossible and we definately should work on that.When i have more time i will try to give a range for all these outcomes,its definately the way we become better players when we analyse in depth these spots especially this deep in MTT(btw i am grinding this specific MTT in Pokerstars everyday)and i am glad that i found here in Cardschat's forum, people that want to improve their game and have also the knowledge to do a serious level poker conversation..:)
 
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