$1 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Turbo: Who all would call through this?

Sidetracked said:

Your play on the first hand is truly astonishing.

Click to expand...

Jon Poker said:

I would raise 77s in the first hand instead of limping. When we limp we invite multiple players into the pot and I dont want to play 77s vs like 4+ villans, much rather be heads up or 3 handed sonic would open this.

Flop comes down A hi, donking out here only accomplishes 2 things... 1 - we value town ourselves vs Ax, and 2 - we get worse hands that would cbet this to now fold and give us no additional chips. The check-call here on the flop is standard and I dont think we should deviate.

Then donk leading the turn again for a min bet is horrendous especially after getting called on the flop - now we have no idea where we are in the hand. Then we get raised...this is bad, we have a gunshot to the 4 and 2 outs for our 77s to hit - 6 outs going to a river makes us about 12% to win if we are behind...this should be a snap fold. We are never beating anything but a pure bluff here and as dry as this board is villan should not have many bluffs on this board texture.

That said, we ignore everything logical and make the call going to the river - rule #1 about bluffing, you HAVE to follow through! Villan makes a giant mistake when they check back river - I would have bet about 40k+ on the river and forced you to have 2 pair or better, or possibly a strong Ax for a sticky player.

I just think overall you overplayed this hand massively, called off a turn raise that should be very strong and got the villan to mistakenly check back river to get you to showdown. That being said, villan should never be in this hand any longer after you donk flop so they are making massive mistakes too.

The next hand with the AJ is almost the same scenario. #1, UTGs opening range should be very strong and any Ax hand they would be opening likely either ties or has your AJo dominated, so with the UTG open and a call from MP in front, I would fold AJo and lose half a blind and just move on.

We dont, we make the call and go to a flop which is pretty nice for us holding the A of spades - then the problems start...we donk bet, again, into 2 villans!! One of which was the UTG raiser! OOP the entire haaaaand!!! This is not only terrible play...this is asking to lose chips. Spewing off at its greatest example! Point is we have a great hand to check-call and realize our flush draw equity, we dont have to face some weird scenarios where we get raised or forced to play for stacks with A hi and a draw. Donk betting here is picking the worst spot to make the worst play ever...

We donk little less than half pot, get UTG to fold and then we get raised....well now we cant fold our nut flush draw and the pot is getting pretty damn large - turn is a brick and when our opponent bets again over half pot after the raise we half to fold our bare flush draw...simply put we are not getting the right odds to realize our equity, it's just a math thing, have to fold.

We do not fold, we are stubborn and are seeing a river card - which comes another absolute brick - we check and yet again we get bailed out by an incompetent villan who does not follow through on their bluffs - easy jam on the river, fold out everything except a flush or a full house - drag the pot.

What I am trying to do here is give you a line of thinking so you can avoid spots and mistakes like these because more often than not you are going to run into much better hands and more villans who WILL pull the triggers on bluffs as well as just siphon chips off of you when they make value hands. I want to enforce good gameplay and good habits for you and your strategy - I didnt come here to bash you, but I will not sugar coat your mistakes because doing such will never lead to improvements. I hope this makes sense, I hope it helps, good luck to you and your games!

Click to expand...

Nr98 said:

Okay both hands give us spots that shouldn't exist (like ever). So instead of focussing on how the exact hands played out, let's keep it simple and focus on two points I think you should take away to improve your game


-At such deep stacks we don't really want to have a limping strategy (except for the Small Blind). Just go for a raise instead.

-For postflop play, keep asking yourself the question: "Why?".

Why are we making the bet? Why are we checking? Why do we make the call here? Etc.

You don't need to have the right answers from the beginning, but simply thinking about this leads to way better decisions. Why are we betting (should we?)? And if so, why are we using this size?

More specifically for both hands preflop:
Hand 1; Just open raise pre, we're too deep stacked to want to have a limping strategy (Except SB)
Hand 2; Squeeze (3b) or fold pre. AJo is a really shit hand against and EP open and MP flat. And especially deepstacked we're in a huge disadvantage playing out of position. At a low frequency we can go for a squeeze here, but in general lean towards a fold. This is huge for most beginning players: STOP flatting from the Small Blind at such a high frequency

Hope this helps a bit. If anything is unclear feel free to reach out

Click to expand...

fundiver199 said:

In the first hand with 77 I would make a standard open raise preflop. I dont see any reason to limp into the pot. As played I would check the flop. I dont see any reason to make a donk bet with this hand and certainly not a minimum donk bet. I usually call them "fish bet", because its just a bad strategy. As played I would call his turn raise, since you picked up a gutshot, and I also think, he would have raised AX on the flop most of the time.

In the second hand with AJ I would have folded preflop. AJo is not good enough to get involved against an UTG open, and even less so from SB seat, because you are going to be out of position. As played I dont mind postflop. Your donk bet can certainly get better hands to fold, and you have both a draw to the nuts and a relevant blocker. A check-raise would also be a good strategy. As for the rest of the hand, the Villain was obviously a spew fish, which is just good for you.

Click to expand...

Nr98 said:

Okay both hands give us spots that shouldn't exist (like ever). So instead of focussing on how the exact hands played out, let's keep it simple and focus on two points I think you should take away to improve your game


-At such deep stacks we don't really want to have a limping strategy (except for the Small Blind). Just go for a raise instead.

-For postflop play, keep asking yourself the question: "Why?".

Why are we making the bet? Why are we checking? Why do we make the call here? Etc.

You don't need to have the right answers from the beginning, but simply thinking about this leads to way better decisions. Why are we betting (should we?)? And if so, why are we using this size?

More specifically for both hands preflop:
Hand 1; Just open raise pre, we're too deep stacked to want to have a limping strategy (Except SB)
Hand 2; Squeeze (3b) or fold pre. AJo is a really shit hand against and EP open and MP flat. And especially deepstacked we're in a huge disadvantage playing out of position. At a low frequency we can go for a squeeze here, but in general lean towards a fold. This is huge for most beginning players: STOP flatting from the Small Blind at such a high frequency

Hope this helps a bit. If anything is unclear feel free to reach out

Click to expand...

Jon Poker said:

Not trying to be overly critical...but why defend your plays and define them as correct when you are asking advice on how you played these hands? If you are losing money opening UTG then you are either making mistakes - which given these 2 hands I would say is highly likely - or your sample size is too small. Point is by donking an A hi board with 2nd pair it doesnt always help us to define our opponents range - it only leaves us confused as to our status in the hand when they call and we face blank turns. Take all of what I said and others with a grain of salt...but if you dont make some changes and you keep playing like this, you will be a good players wet dream.

Click to expand...

Jdjakubisin said:

I also want to say that I am not "defining" anything as correct. I look at these blogs as study of the situations, behaviors and habits of people who play this game and the opportunities that are there. I have no model of perfect play, because I don't think you can be rigid and only play hands you will win and get the lucky calls it takes to make it up the chipleader board at the same time.

I was always the guy who "managed to get a lot of lucky calls." That was my thing, perfection is just an idea.... but a beautiful one though.

Also interesting, as one of you started in about rookies to "stop flat calling in the SB," I'm curious what you think are decent numbers, as I am finding that I'm getting a few ignorant habits according to others advice of "not just limping in" for cheap in the SB.

The way I am playing in the SB is actually something I would defend, as it is numerical.

I want to know what I could be looking for to make it better realistically as opposed to hypothetically.

In tournament play from the SB;
-With VPIP of 38% and PFR of 7.5%, it is a mirror image of the C/O position for me and profitably has an edge on it. C/O= VPIP 40.2%, PFR 6.02%. They are both my most profitable positions.
-I GTSD 35.4%, W$SD 70%

Click to expand...

Jdjakubisin said:

Ahhhh....

"Asking why?" Well, I'll go ahead and list it out for the record because I consider my play durring a MTT like this to be mostly premeditated. Some have said "Premeditated... and wrong!," but it is what it is. I have to admit I make misjudgments and get soft on occasion, but for the most part I post to make observations of other players behavior and situations.

1) 77 UTG v MP
- I don't raise big early unless I'm in desperation mode. It seems to me people could put me on a wider range and try to reraise me while I end up getting more value and sparing myself unworkable flops. 77 seems to be a hand I either get lucky on slipping it in there like that, or I can't count on if I get even 1 or 2 calls.

- Postflop, I want to see him react to that ace, and I am comfortable with the other two under cards. It seemed a calm, confident reaction.

-Post turn. This is where the guy gets crazy. His re-raise was out of character to similar hands. People seem to get too confident that "magical suited connectors in the cutoff" are always a lock and too scary, and this seemed the case for this battle between the rising #2 & #3 stacks. I really put him on a spade draw and decided to risk a portion of my stack. I like that it was anther under card and I like pkt pairs making the higher end of a straight.

-River. This is where I convince myself I played it well enough he absolutley cannot try to follow through with the bluff, so he checks.

2) AJoff in SB v same guy in MP.
- I call in the SB here up to 3BB. My personal records of 1000's of hands indicate a suited AJ in the SB is almost perfect, and an AJ here also hits good 75%. I also suspect the guy is on tilt from that side of the table.

- Flop. I like the 3 spades to go with my ace. I like that my solid c-betting leading me to good reads from the previous hand gave me a solid table image, and I like that I am the new chip leader getting way ahead of these guys, so I lead out with a half pot bet. He re-raises again the entire pot, and I am still confident I can either 1) make use of another spade or pair of my overcards, or 2) get him off a bluff while he is in late on the river.

-Turn. I check and he bets 1/2 pot. Now, from watching him (as I said, my entire game is a premeditation for the next move) I can tell that if he doesn't see any reason to shove ALL OF HIS STACK IN, I can only conclude he has absolutely nothing!

-River. Again I am right, he can't try it again and I take one of the biggest pots I ever have played through this far with only ace high.

Click to expand...

• "I end up getting more value and sparing myself unworkable flops". It's not uncommon to think about limping in this way. In fact, many beginning players do. Keep the pot small, see a flop and see how we go from there. However, depending on your limping range this can lead to one of two things. 1. If you're limping with a range that is way too wide, any solid opponent will exploit this hard by raising you with a wide range. Meaning you either build a bigger pot with a marginal hand, or you allow your opponents to see cheap flops for nothing (no raise, means we never fold out the big blind obviously). 2. If you're limping with a range similar to a solid opening range you both leave money on the table (we don't get value), and get ourselves in a lot of nasty multiway spots. It's overly simplistic but it has a core truth. In poker we want to build the pot with a good hand. Ofcourse, once we only raise our solid hands and limp our weak once we are easily exploitable (as in point 1). So concluding, for both reasons, on a deep stack we want to be raising (except from the small blind where a mixed strategy is actually more profitable).
• "I want to see him react to that ace". While I'm not a fan of the "bet to see where I'm at" argument. I don't mind the bet that much actually. The more important thing here is why we're betting. In general there are three reasons for betting. Betting for value, betting as a bluff and betting for protection. It can also be a mix of value and protection. Here, an exploitative donk bet for protection and value makes a lot of sense, since I highly doubt you'd get raised enough in a $1 MTT to get punished for it.
• Instead of going in depth to your turn and river decision. I want to focus on a specific theme here. You seem overly convinced that Villain can only be bluffing (with suited connectors). How come? Tunnel vision can be very dangerous in a game like this. Instead of focussing on a specific hand, try to focus on Villains range. We start doing this preflop, what range of hands do we think he opens with? Then on the flop, out of those hands, with which would he be calling our bet? Then again on the turn, now which part of that range would be raising us? Poker in this way is a linear game. On one hand we can't magically add cards in their postflop range that weren't there preflop, but we also can't count out the hands in his range that he would make this bet with simply because it justifies our decision. To say Villain is always bluffing here is overly simplistic and requires a very hard and solid read.

• Since this is already quite an overload of information, I'll keep the last bullet point short and sweet. In the Small Blind we want to be raising rather than flatting on average. Especially against two opponents. Normally AJo should be a very low frequency squeeze here. But if the entire table plays so much crap hands, going for a squeeze at a high frequency is totally fine. But in general, raising makes our life a lot easier out of position postflop (lower SPR) while giving us the chance to take down the pot preflop (Which we prefer since we're deepstacked and OOP, thus realising our equity is hard).

Jon Poker said:

This will be my last post in this thread because I dont want to hijack it or make this about a back and forth between you and I.

No you may not have said "this is why my play is correct" - but you certainly are giving off that vibe, criticizing the same points being reinforced across multiple replies. Playing exploitative vs the general player pool is entirely profitable. Playing like a fool and getting lucky is not! You are posting these situations and instead of realizing multiple members are telling you the same things - you are getting defensive about the feedback you are receiving. This is not how we learn.

Moving on :: I appreciate you sharing some stat info with us, not everyone will do that. Those VPIPs and PFRs are waaaaay out of balance. The SB should be one of the seats we play the least amount of hands from and the CO should be nowhere near 40% with a 6% PFR. You are certainly making mistakes and being a little closed minded about dealing with them. If I had offended you, I apologize but I try to be as direct as I can in my replies as it keeps me honest and sugar coating a situation will not get across any points trying to be made.

Good luck to you, I hope you improve and enjoy your games.

Click to expand...

Jdjakubisin said:

Yea, I just wanted to say this isn't arguing. I read the analysis here and with the wonder of technology I go back in my holdem tracker and see what would have happened. I often feel like there are elements that take things out of context that can be put into words.

Those are my intentions, to share and to learn. Genuinely. I can't play every hand like that obviously, but the timing is something that can be calculated and should be accounted for. Managing the read to do so is all I would say was correct.

What people tell me should have happened doesn't always get me any more wins or money. You have to deal with the situation you are actually presented with. Go ahead and keep watching as I raise the stakes from some of these bankroll builders.

That's as far as it goes.

Later on.

Click to expand...