$1.50 NLHE STT: Shove OK here on Flop?

Only 40 hands on V 5/5 through them w/3bet of 12.5(2/16 times).

I thought if I would try n get him to fold any Ax not making a pair, Even if V has the J or bigger pair then I still have outs.


Yatahay Network - 40/80 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BB: 1,614 (20.2 bb)
UTG: 1,238 (15.5 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 2,518 (31.5 bb)
MP: 2,249 (28.1 bb)
MP+1: 2,609 (32.6 bb)
CO: 2,515 (31.4 bb)
BTN: 2,686 (33.6 bb)
SB: 2,571 (32.1 bb)

8 players post ante of 8, SB posts 40, BB posts 80

Pre Flop: (pot: 184) Hero has
fold, Hero raises to 222, 3 folds, BTN raises to 640, 2 folds, Hero calls 418

Flop: (1,464, 2 players)
Hero bets 1,870 and is all-in

If I am reading the stats right you are saying villain vpips and raises only 5% of the time through 40 hands. That is not a lot of hands but it is enough to pick up a little bit on them and see they do not play many and probably do not play trash. The 3 bet % can be from a few big hands (which seems like all villain plays) which had a raise in front of them.

In normal circumstances here I would say that you should jam pre as I am not an advocate of calling 25% or so of my stack to see a flop which will more than likely have at least one overcard in it. To me this is a jam or fold spot pre and normally I would be jamming but with villain's stats I think I am leaning towards a fold here. If they are only playing 5% of hands that puts them at JJ+, and AK. I think there is clearly a chance we are flipping to the good (56% or so) here against two overcards but I would be weary of the 5% that they are playing and probably fold. That might be too tight but that's how I would play this. As I mentioned before though, I would never be just calling this bet pre with our stack size.

As 300HPGOD say, calling this 3-bet OOP with such a short stack is a little debatable, and I would probably also leans towards either making a tight fold or just getting it in. As played this was one of the better flops, you could hope for, so I would certainly be looking to stack off. I dont like your stop-and-go play though, because I think, you almost force him to play well.

He is never folding a better hand, and he is rarely calling with worse either. So I would rather check to him and then go for a check-jam, if he puts out a small C-bet like 30% pot. If he then has a AK/AQ type hand, he might feel committed to call it off, and even if he fold, you win a bigger pot.

300HPGOD said:

If I am reading the stats right you are saying villain vpips and raises only 5% of the time through 40 hands. That is not a lot of hands but it is enough to pick up a little bit on them and see they do not play many and probably do not play trash. The 3 bet % can be from a few big hands (which seems like all villain plays) which had a raise in front of them.

In normal circumstances here I would say that you should jam pre as I am not an advocate of calling 25% or so of my stack to see a flop which will more than likely have at least one overcard in it. To me this is a jam or fold spot pre and normally I would be jamming but with villain's stats I think I am leaning towards a fold here. If they are only playing 5% of hands that puts them at JJ+, and AK. I think there is clearly a chance we are flipping to the good (56% or so) here against two overcards but I would be weary of the 5% that they are playing and probably fold. That might be too tight but that's how I would play this. As I mentioned before though, I would never be just calling this bet pre with our stack size.

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I just don't like to fold here. Especially this being a $1.50 game and ppl will 3-bet any suited A. Although I don't get that feeling from V from his 5/5, but that isn't a lot of hands. I had him on AQ+, possibly AJ, and JJ+. J on the flop minimizes JJ. So I guess I'm still shoving w/around a 66% chance of him having a better hand. Also didn't want to 4-bet shove knowing that theres 66% or so that I was up against a higher pair.

fundiver199 said:

As 300HPGOD say, calling this 3-bet OOP with such a short stack is a little debatable, and I would probably also leans towards either making a tight fold or just getting it in. As played this was one of the better flops, you could hope for, so I would certainly be looking to stack off. I dont like your stop-and-go play though, because I think, you almost force him to play well.

He is never folding a better hand, and he is rarely calling with worse either. So I would rather check to him and then go for a check-jam, if he puts out a small C-bet like 30% pot. If he then has a AK/AQ type hand, he might feel committed to call it off, and even if he fold, you win a bigger pot.

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That's why I didn't like the check/jam, I feel he's going to feel committed if I let him C-bet.

Once again, guys, thanks for stopping by and giving me your opinions.

-HP

HerbPuffer said:

That's why I didn't like the check/jam, I feel he's going to feel committed if I let him C-bet.

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Its way better to get it in with 75% equity rather than risk an overbet to make him give up his 25%.

Mistake number one here is not getting it all in preflop with 32bb -- why aren't we just shipping it with TTs here instead of going to a flop where we are going to face at least one overcard a high percentage of the time and be put into awkward situations for our tournament life. Just get it in, its largely profitable and if we run into an overpair so what, its called a cooler and there's nothing we can learn from it.

That said - the second mistake for me is the flop shove - we are shoving flop to get called by what? What worse hands are going to call us off here on the flop? Not many...AK gets stubborn and doesn't fold? QT if we are lucky? Just a bad scenario put together - we're likely going to fold out worse and get snapped off by the J or better.

I know why we shoved flop here - the sizing is actually pretty ok because of our SPR - but we shoved because this is the uncomfortable 1 overcard flop i was talking about and so now we are going to shove to try to get him to fold everything that isn't a J or better so we dont have to face bets and weird turns or rivers -- so if we are going to wait until we are potentially out flopped to get our money in - then why not get it all in preflop when we likely have the best hand and most equity?

Don't overcomplicate things for yourself - on your stack size a 4b shove with TTs is not only normal, but as mentioned is totally profitable.

Jon Poker said:

Don't overcomplicate things for yourself - on your stack size a 4b shove with TTs is not only normal, but as mentioned is totally profitable.

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Or at least its profitable, if Villain is 3-betting sort of normal. Just want to add also, that if we are taking this line postflop on a J high board or for that matter on boards, where we flop an overpair, then we still get it bad, if we ran into JJ+. So what is it really, we want to achieve by just flatting preflop? Do we think, we can outplay him OOP with TT? We miss our set 7 out of 8 times, and then we are left with a middling pair, which tend to be the most difficult hand type of all to play. We never really know, where we are, and we only have a few outs to improve, when we are behind. This is why, 4-bet jamming is just so much easier, and most likely also more profitable in the long run.

I like the jam in that situation I think the villain made the 3bet with Ax and with TT and a straight draw I would have done the same, perhaps the only difference in how I would have played the hand is in the size of the bet in the Pre- flop would have made it a bit bigger but I think the hand was well played in general

Hello, I think that we can't play jam pre flop, becuase we are a little too deep. I don't like playing coinflip for over 20bb in stack, here we have over 30bb. I can play jam pre flop with TT on 30bb in stack when I play against big fish. As played - I play this hand a little differently, I prefer playing by check/calling the flop, sometimes on the turn opponent won't continue aggression, sometimes he will play check in position and will take a free card. If sometimes he would check on the turn, it sometimes would mean a weakness and he would have something like two over cards. Playing allin with TT and one over card on the flop as a first player OOP is always very risky move and I'm not sure if it is right move. For me it is very risky move. GL

Appreciating all the feedback. Keep it coming. I'll post the result in a few hours if yinz like.

About the only thing the 40 hands tell us is this villain lost his call button.

Calling his 3bet almost (not quite) commits us to the pot. We have to be willing to shove with hands that miss AK and maybe Q, or just fold pre. J97 is about as good as we can get. He might have AJ or a set, but that is unlikely. He easily could have QQ+, but against that we have at least 6 outs (24%).

Fold pre or go as played.

So what did he have, T8s?

HerbPuffer said:

Only 40 hands on V 5/5 through them w/3bet of 12.5(2/16 times).

I thought if I would try n get him to fold any Ax not making a pair, Even if V has the J or bigger pair then I still have outs.


Yatahay Network - 40/80 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BB: 1,614 (20.2 bb)
UTG: 1,238 (15.5 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 2,518 (31.5 bb)
MP: 2,249 (28.1 bb)
MP+1: 2,609 (32.6 bb)
CO: 2,515 (31.4 bb)
BTN: 2,686 (33.6 bb)
SB: 2,571 (32.1 bb)

8 players post ante of 8, SB posts 40, BB posts 80

Pre Flop: (pot: 184) Hero has
fold, Hero raises to 222, 3 folds, BTN raises to 640, 2 folds, Hero calls 418

Flop: (1,464, 2 players)
Hero bets 1,870 and is all-in

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this is a 4bet shove pre in this spot, BTN Always has a wide range. you gotta take them flips in mtt!
never calling here pre unless villian is super nit!

I will play fold or shove pre. What is this 2/16? Is this 2/16 with this hand or it is already 3/17? Still I realize this will be kinda borderline shove. For STT maybe I will fold. But this doesn't matter, because you chose call. If you call with this hand in this spot, then you can't fold an overpair. OTF you played well.

thehangdude said:

About the only thing the 40 hands tell us is this villain lost his call button.

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And the raise button.

seeyouthru said:

this is a 4bet shove pre in this spot, BTN Always has a wide range. you gotta take them flips in mtt!
never calling here pre unless villian is super nit!

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Not an MTT, SnG, stats seem pretty nitty to me. Although not much of a sample.

UkoChebuko said:

I will play fold or shove pre. What is this 2/16? Is this 2/16 with this hand or it is already 3/17? Still I realize this will be kinda borderline shove. For STT maybe I will fold. But this doesn't matter, because you chose call. If you call with this hand in this spot, then you can't fold an overpair. OTF you played well.

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Was 2/16 at the time, this 3bet made it 3/17.

Also someone said about making PFR bigger. How big do you go? At 40/80, my raise to 222 is already 2.8x or so.

Villain showed up w/QQ. GG me.

HerbPuffer said:

Villain showed up w/QQ. GG me.

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Not much you could do but fold a top 10 hand pre. Coolers happen, but you had a fair chance post flop. I probably would have played it the same way.

If you are playing against a regular player maybe he can raise preflop with TT+, AT+. I don't think that he will wide more his range, because in general a player from the UTG must have a strong hand... When you cbet allin on flop generally means you had afraid to the villain increase his hand power, the villain will fold almost all his unmade hand, but any pair above JJ will call, some J can call too...

You need to think about your range, the villain range and in what range he puts you. Don't count with the lucky, play with your knowledge and avoid get involved in theses spots.

Also someone said about making PFR bigger. How big do you go? At 40/80, my raise to 222 is already 2.8x or so.

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40, 80, I start to use min raise already. "Only" 160 chips. With an ante, I use 180. 200 with some bad hands with blocking effect (Ax mainly) or on SB with some garbage. If I play so low. At the higher limits the regs very fast will notice what you are doing. When they see some strong hand at the SD with 180 size or SD with 200.

UkoChebuko said:

40, 80, I start to use min raise already. "Only" 160 chips. With an ante, I use 180. 200 with some bad hands with blocking effect (Ax mainly) or on SB with some garbage. If I play so low. At the higher limits the regs very fast will notice what you are doing. When they see some strong hand at the SD with 180 size or SD with 200.

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I usually hit 2.2 somewhere around these levels when playing $5s and above. At the $1.50 and $3s, I keep it around 3x for a while seeing as nobody likes to fold. All my PF bets are the same and don't differentiate based on hands.