$1.10 NLHE STT: Did I get myself into trouble with this ISO raise?

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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My thought process is that UTG+1 raised 2bb for half his stack so he's not usually super strong if he's not putting in his whole stack. MP+1 is virtually irrelevant with his entire stack being less than half a bb. I did want to ISO raise and put UTG+1 all in preflop in a coin flip situation. I think UTG could go either way, he's either strong and calling any raise regardless of the size or he's weak and folding to almost any raise.

iPoker - $1+$0.10|<> NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 4.7 BB (VPIP: 36.84, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 19)
MP: 17.45 BB (VPIP: 47.37, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP+1: 0.4 BB (VPIP: 47.37, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP+2: 22.75 BB (VPIP: 42.11, PFR: 5.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
Hero (CO): 26.4 BB
BTN: 13.7 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
SB: 21.3 BB (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 5.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
BB: 10.75 BB (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
UTG: 17.55 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 5.26, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 19)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:heart: A:diamond:

UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 raises to 2 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 0.4 BB, fold, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 4 BB, UTG+1 calls 2.7 BB

Flop: (16.6 BB, 4 players) A:club: J:club: J:heart:
UTG bets 12.55 BB, fold
 
bushy_lufc

bushy_lufc

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Yeah I would just fold here.... there really won't be many flops you will really like and no draws to bluff on the turn usually too.
 
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afsalagoas

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What is the reason for the increase PF with A9s? Because of the position or amount of chips?
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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afsalagoas said:
What is the reason for the increase PF with A9s? Because of the position or amount of chips?
Click to expand...

Some of both, but mostly chips. For position, there's are only 3 players to act behind me and the odds that the SB and BB are strong enough to call are slim. And I'm hoping that 5bb is enough pressure on UTG to get him to either commit or fold while not putting all my chips in and committing myself
 
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WiZZiM

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look at it terms of ICM. If we fold and do nothing here, we essentially let two players fight it out with no risk, so we can increase our $ev by doing nothing at all. The short stacked player will be knocked out 40-60% of the time here depending on his range and our share of the prize pool increases.

Worst case the short stack doubles up, which slightly lessens our value, but not as much as we stand to gain if he gets knocked out.

Now, to get a better picture of how much we can stand to win/lose etc, we need to put some figures in an ICM calculator to determine how much overall we can win/lose in this spot.

So to do this we need to work out all the possibilities and work out logically which one is the best one.

I'm going to do half of the work for you, and you can do the rest yourself for learning purposes (if you wish to do so)

So the angles we need to cover here

equity gained by doing nothing
a- if short stack gets knocked out
b- if he doubles up

equity gained by us iso raising and knocking this player out
a-if we knock him out
b- if he wins

So to put this into an icm calc, you need to go to a site like icmpoker.com
input all the relevant stack sizes to work out your equity in the tournament right now. After that work out how the stacks change if someone gets knocked out and you win the chips or whatever the situation. Remember the people in the blinds as this will add chips to your stack. Then go through and work out equity for yourself in all the above situations. i would do it for you but i don't have the stack sizes availiable to me. it will take a little bit of time but may provide a better overall view of how sometimes doing nothing is just as profitable as knocking players out yourself.

Simply put, once you have a stack of chips, or you are near the top place in the sng, the more chips you gain the less they are worth overall. Conversely the chips you lose are worth more and you will take bigger hits. So while it might seem like as the big stack you should be the guy knocking players out, it's actually the opposite and it's sometimes best to stay out of the way of akward situations that have more detriments than benefits.
 
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alexdr87

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in this case, I would have made fold
 
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trent32la

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WiZZiM said:
look at it terms of ICM. If we fold and do nothing here, we essentially let two players fight it out with no risk, so we can increase our $ev by doing nothing at all. The short stacked player will be knocked out 40-60% of the time here depending on his range and our share of the prize pool increases.

Worst case the short stack doubles up, which slightly lessens our value, but not as much as we stand to gain if he gets knocked out.

Now, to get a better picture of how much we can stand to win/lose etc, we need to put some figures in an ICM calculator to determine how much overall we can win/lose in this spot.

So to do this we need to work out all the possibilities and work out logically which one is the best one.

I'm going to do half of the work for you, and you can do the rest yourself for learning purposes (if you wish to do so)

So the angles we need to cover here

Equity gained by doing nothing
a- if short stack gets knocked out
b- if he doubles up

equity gained by us iso raising and knocking this player out
a-if we knock him out
b- if he wins

So to put this into an icm calc, you need to go to a site like icmpoker.com
input all the relevant stack sizes to work out your equity in the tournament right now. After that work out how the stacks change if someone gets knocked out and you win the chips or whatever the situation. Remember the people in the blinds as this will add chips to your stack. Then go through and work out equity for yourself in all the above situations. i would do it for you but i don't have the stack sizes availiable to me. it will take a little bit of time but may provide a better overall view of how sometimes doing nothing is just as profitable as knocking players out yourself.

Simply put, once you have a stack of chips, or you are near the top place in the sng, the more chips you gain the less they are worth overall. Conversely the chips you lose are worth more and you will take bigger hits. So while it might seem like as the big stack you should be the guy knocking players out, it's actually the opposite and it's sometimes best to stay out of the way of akward situations that have more detriments than benefits.
Click to expand...
Very solid post by WiZZiM here, completely agree with everything.

One thing I will add is that when you are the biggest stack in the SnG, it's much better to avoid calling allins as you can use your stack to take down pots without showdown by applying pressure to shorter stacks.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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WiZZiM said:
look at it terms of ICM. If we fold and do nothing here, we essentially let two players fight it out with no risk, so we can increase our $ev by doing nothing at all. The short stacked player will be knocked out 40-60% of the time here depending on his range and our share of the prize pool increases.

Worst case the short stack doubles up, which slightly lessens our value, but not as much as we stand to gain if he gets knocked out.

Now, to get a better picture of how much we can stand to win/lose etc, we need to put some figures in an ICM calculator to determine how much overall we can win/lose in this spot.

So to do this we need to work out all the possibilities and work out logically which one is the best one.

I'm going to do half of the work for you, and you can do the rest yourself for learning purposes (if you wish to do so)

So the angles we need to cover here

Equity gained by doing nothing
a- if short stack gets knocked out
b- if he doubles up

equity gained by us iso raising and knocking this player out
a-if we knock him out
b- if he wins

So to put this into an icm calc, you need to go to a site like icmpoker.com
input all the relevant stack sizes to work out your equity in the tournament right now. After that work out how the stacks change if someone gets knocked out and you win the chips or whatever the situation. Remember the people in the blinds as this will add chips to your stack. Then go through and work out equity for yourself in all the above situations. i would do it for you but i don't have the stack sizes availiable to me. it will take a little bit of time but may provide a better overall view of how sometimes doing nothing is just as profitable as knocking players out yourself.

Simply put, once you have a stack of chips, or you are near the top place in the sng, the more chips you gain the less they are worth overall. Conversely the chips you lose are worth more and you will take bigger hits. So while it might seem like as the big stack you should be the guy knocking players out, it's actually the opposite and it's sometimes best to stay out of the way of akward situations that have more detriments than benefits.
Click to expand...

When doing these comparisons we need to use our hand equity to figure to proper EV of each line right?
Honestly trying to figure an accurate $EV for the ISO raise seems like it could be a really intensive formula...
Something like:
FE*(Amount won * EquityA - Ammount lost * (1-EquityA)) + (1-FE)*(Amount won * EquityB - Ammount lost * (1-EquityB))

Where FE is the odds of UTG limp-folding, Equity A is the equity against UTG+1's minraise - call all in range and EquityB is the the equity against both UTG and UTG+1's limp call and raise-call all in ranges... Does that seem like the right math for the EV of this line? How would I adjust this formula for the odds that I hit a flop I like enough to go all in vs fold vs the odds that villain checks it down? Theoretically he should be at least checking to me most of the time and giving me a free turn card (and results-oriented I would have called any shove every time if I had seen the turn :p ) Do we only figure our equity to the flop or do we figure our total equity?

EDIT: and of course since we are calculating $EV we would be using our ICM values in ammount won and ammount lost instead of our chip values
 
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W

WiZZiM

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sure you can do ev calcs for postflop play if that helps you. software like flopzilla can help you in similar ways without having to do all the calcs. in sng since postflop really isn't our bread and butter we kind of want to focus on the simple decisions.

What i'm trying to help you here with is that alot of the time it's better to just fold and move onto the next hand rather than trying to squeak out value in these spots. That type of work is best done at higher levels where we can't really have much of an edge if any in the late game, then doing the above is a great idea.

But since you're playing low levels and you're still learning, focusing on the simple shove/fold spots is way more important at this stage than doing complex postflop calcs.
 
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