$1.10 NLHE STT: $1,10 NLHE STT: $ : 20/40 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

whiskers77

whiskers77

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Hi cardschatters,
how would you have played following hand? Was it wrong and at too early stage to call the push from the other player?

partypoker - 20/40 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 1,538 (VPIP: 36.84, PFR: 26.32, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, hands: 19)
Hero (SB): 1,805
BB: 1,325 (VPIP: 15.79, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 19)
UTG: 1,650 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
MP: 998 (VPIP: 31.58, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
CO: 1,684 (VPIP: 31.58, PFR: 21.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)

Hero posts SB 20, BB posts BB 40

Pre Flop: (pot: 60) Hero has Q Q

UTG calls 40, MP raises to 120, fold, fold, Hero raises to 280, fold, fold, MP raises to 998 and is all-in, Hero calls 718

Flop: (2,076, 2 players) K 3 8

Turn: (2,076, 2 players) 7

River: (2,076, 2 players) 5

Hero shows Q Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 54%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
MP shows A K (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 46%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
MP wins 2,076
 
naruto_miu

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Since this Is the early stages of the game, you should be focusing on building a playable stack.

Also this person has (Give or take) a-little more than 50% of your remaining stack. So when they open for 3x, and you made that small 3 piece (Back at them), than you should've already had known prior to doing that move, whether or not you were gonna call. In the pot currently Is 20(SB)+40(BB)+120+240=420, this players remaining stack Is 878, your remaining stack Is 1805-240=1565, Now when they 4bet A.I that made a total pot of 420+878=1298 and It cost you 878 out of your remaining 1565. You're holding QQ and since you only have 19 hands on the person and they seem rather loose/passive, they're holding something that they're willing to GII with, so AA/KK/AK/JJ and maybe 10s.

As for myself, I make this call all day long, but as a side-note, If you're not comfortable with GII pre with QQ (Per-say) than why even 3bet pre with It? Also why make the 3 piece, to such a tiny amount, unless your Intention was for them to 4bet A.I (Since they had a somewhat tiny stack compared to you) and you thought by 3 betting to a larger amount you may scare them of? If your Intention was for them to 4bet A.I vs you and you snap than you got the outcome you wanted but not the result you were hoping for (That Is this game). Now If you weren't comfortable with having to call 4 bet A.I for 50% of your stack (This early), than why 3bet In the first place?
 
whiskers77

whiskers77

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Hi naruto_miu,

thanks a lot for your precise and elaborated answer. I have to admit, that at that moment I was not really aware honestly of his stack, when I was reraising. I was a bit distracted.
And yeah, you are right, that I reraised to few as well. Actually I am also not very
comfortable with the bet slider of partypoker. It makes me sometimes mad during the games. :-D
 
Loonbat

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Since this Is the early stages of the game, you should be focusing on building a playable stack.

Also this person has (Give or take) a-little more than 50% of your remaining stack. So when they open for 3x, and you made that small 3 piece (Back at them), than you should've already had known prior to doing that move, whether or not you were gonna call. In the pot currently Is 20(SB)+40(BB)+120+240=420, this players remaining stack Is 878, your remaining stack Is 1805-240=1565, Now when they 4bet A.I that made a total pot of 420+878=1298 and It cost you 878 out of your remaining 1565. You're holding QQ and since you only have 19 hands on the person and they seem rather loose/passive, they're holding something that they're willing to GII with, so AA/KK/AK/JJ and maybe 10s.

As for myself, I make this call all day long, but as a side-note, If you're not comfortable with GII pre with QQ (Per-say) than why even 3bet pre with It? Also why make the 3 piece, to such a tiny amount, unless your Intention was for them to 4bet A.I (Since they had a somewhat tiny stack compared to you) and you thought by 3 betting to a larger amount you may scare them of? If your Intention was for them to 4bet A.I vs you and you snap than you got the outcome you wanted but not the result you were hoping for (That Is this game). Now If you weren't comfortable with having to call 4 bet A.I for 50% of your stack (This early), than why 3bet In the first place?

Great, thorough answer
 
alienat3d

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Hello whiskers77 :)

Your hand and situation looks to me pretty the same, as one of the first exemplary hands from Collin Moshman's book "Strategy for Sit'n'Go tournaments", where he explained way more evolved, than i probably ever could, so i do really recommend you to take that book and start to read, you will find this hand very quickly then, as it's at very beginning of the book. ;)
But by now i want to tell you in a few words what it's all about: QQ is a very strong starting hand, it's 3rd best starting hand obviously too and it's snap-call on middle and late position for sure, when stacks are not that big in comparison to blinds. But at the beginning of SNG tournament you have to avoid gambling at any cost. Exception are starting hands like AA and KK, you have to push them and call shoves at any stage of SNG-tournament from any position. But you know, QQ is kind of on the line, where you do gambling. Mostly because of huge possibility your opponent has AK and less KK, AA, which is real disaster. Stacks are deep enough still to avoid gambling situations and trying to outplay your opponents at postflop. And as it's also written in Moshman's book, SNG-tournament is a totally different thing in comparison to cash games. When two players with 1500 chips (let say 15$ worth) both goes all-in with 50% to win at cash game, either they win 15$ or loose the money. At SNG we have to do with totally different concept. More chips you have in stack less they worth. Why it is like that? ICM concept mathematically explains it: Imagine we are playing $109 SNG-tournament and blinds at the moment 100/200. How much costs in $ one big blind for player with 1000 chips and how much for one having 5000 chips? 1BB=200chips=1% of all chips (20000) in that SNG-tournament. And total prize pool for collecting all those 20000 chips is equal $1000. At a very first look it seems that 200 chips worth $10, but as ICM concept tells us, that more chips we have less they worth and vice versa. So let's look at numbers from Moshman's book example: Stack size 1000 chips = $57
Stack size 800 chips = $46
So for the player with 1000 chips paying one Big Blind would cost: $57-$46=$11
Stack size 5000 chips = $229
Stack size 4800 chips = $222
For another player with 5000 chips in stack paying one Big Blind would cost: $229-$222 = $7
On that example we can see it makes a big difference in comparison to cash game, where no matter how deep stacks are, 1 chip is always worth the same amount of $.
And in addition, when two players gambling with 50% chances they are both in risk to finish that tournament with none, in meanwhile all other players at the table, who folded are in advantage, as they coming closer to pay out, when one player been eliminated. Therefor it's very important to play tight at the beginning and try to see some cheap flops, hoping to create a monster to double up with, instead of playing coin flip. There will be enough situations for that on later stages, when everybody is pretty short stacked.
 
Last edited:
whiskers77

whiskers77

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Hi alienat3d.

thank you very much about your detailed answer as well, and yeah, I got it is about the ICM concept, that you explained very well.
 
liuouhgkres

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Well this hand is not up for debate, it plays itself. 3-bet call all in and pray to hold.
 
A

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Hello whiskers77 :)

Your hand and situation looks to me pretty the same, as one of the first exemplary hands from Collin Moshman's book "Strategy for Sit'n'Go tournaments", where he explained way more evolved, than i probably ever could, so i do really recommend you to take that book and start to read, you will find this hand very quickly then, as it's at very beginning of the book. ;)

Moshman's book is great.
Are you recommending a fold here?
In this hand, the hero needs to call 718 to potentially win a pot of 2076.
There is nothing in Moshman's book that can be taken as justification for a fold in this spot. If I recall Moshman's hand example correctly, it demonstrated that long-term, coin-flips early in tournaments only benefit the players who are not in the hand. The lesson is to avoid marginal spots early.

The hero's 3-bet here is fine, although I would have bet a little bigger. He has a premium hand and fold equity. The desired outcome is that the opponent folds, therefore avoiding a coin flip.


Well played.
 
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