$1.10 NLHE MTT: Would you have bet the turn?

EvertonGirl · Nov 3, 2016

If so, should I have bet more.

PokerStars - 20/40 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 1,500 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 5)
UTG: 2,760 (VPIP: 80.00, PFR: 40.00, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 5)
UTG+1: 1,260 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP: 1,660 (VPIP: 80.00, PFR: 60.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
CO: 540 (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
Hero (BTN): 1,500
SB: 1,280 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

SB posts SB 20, BB posts BB 40

Pre Flop: (pot: 60) Hero has K♥ J♣

fold, UTG+1 raises to 80, fold, fold, Hero calls 80, fold, BB calls 40

Flop: (260, 3 players) 8♥ 7♣ 6♥
BB checks, UTG+1 bets 130, Hero calls 130, fold

Turn: (520, 2 players) Q♠
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets 260, UTG+1 calls 260

Should I have 3bet here? Or is the flatting better?

Didn't have enough on vill to know how he plays. I didn't believe he had flopped the straight and I called to see what the turn brought as I have 2 overs. As he only checked the turn I now believe he definitely didn't have the straight or a Q as I think hw would of barrelled if he had the Q, but could possibly have the OESD or the GS... I can also rule out any 2 pair or a set as he possibly would of c/r here. I wanted to bet to try and get him off the draw... Should I have bet more... I also thought I could be ahead with K high. I was only giving Vill 3 to 1 to hit his draw and if I was in his place I wouldn't of called the turn bet unless I was getting 4 to 1 or more especially on the turn as there is only 1 more card to come and I would have little implied odds.

I will show results later.

Knittle · Nov 3, 2016

I'm confused.

It is very deep right now, you have no stats on any of these guys either.

I think calling here is actually weak in the first place. I get why you did it, but you should be playing VERY tight and shouldn't be flatting there. If anything, raise and try to steal (again no stats though).

Flop is SUPER WET.. I mean VERY wet. You do have the K of H.. but is the call fine with no stats? No. Fold the flop and move on.

You didn't, confused why but that is fine. Turn is a bad card for you again.. he checks which just screams that it is a trap.. but again why are you betting there? He isn't c-betting that flop and folding on that turn.

Just my general opinion. I know this is micros, but you really have no hands to get a substantial read. Play straight forward until you can pick up on a read and go from there.

Knittle · Nov 3, 2016

Again,

You have no hands with these guys, so why are you assuming his range? You have no substantial read on their range and you're putting them on one? Confusing to me.

Andrey Smirnov · Nov 3, 2016

Imo, awful turn decision. To start with, since it is 7-max I am not sure his utg+1 range is pretty tight, so there might be some T9/98 combos sometimes even 87/76 why not its 1.1 tourney. I dont think 3-bet preflop is fine option here.

Okay, on the flop he almost always will c-bet with connectors I have written above, he will often c-bet flush-draws too, for example, some broadways like Ax/QJ/QT/JT and so on. If he flopped a set or he has an overpair he will c-bet almost always on this wet board, because there are many turns which he is scared of. I am not sure he has enough A8s/A7s hands in his range to bet with, but if he has these holdings in his range he will c-bet too sometimes.

What hands we are going to kick from the pot with betting turn? we are kicking here almost only air, sets will push, strong flush-draws wont fold often enough, overpairs like TT wont believe us enough often too imo, some holdings with monster-draw sometimes will even push on the turn . And what holdings we pretend to have here? All sets we would raise on the flop , some weak straights we would raise on the flop too, some strong draws we often would push on the flop too generating some fold-equity. So there arent many holdings we can present here with our turn bet taking into attention our flop-line.

Playing check-call turn opponent is more likely too have strong flush-draws, monster draw sometims( JT of hearts for example). He might play set this way but I dont think so, sets almost never will play this way imo. So, his check-call range on the turn is only about tricky nuts straights, strong flush-draws+pair(for example AQ of hearts), monster-draws ( JT of hearts), pretty many two pairs holdings andpocket 99-AA which dont believe us since our line is pretty strange here.

And I dunno must win continue our bluff on the blank rivers. Maybe even yes than no, but I am not sure he is folding here enough. But I would consider push all-in here on the blanks rivers, we can get here some fold for sure, but how many. But in common, folding on the flop is gr8 idea of course)

EvertonGirl · Nov 3, 2016

Knittle said:
I'm confused.

It is very deep right now, you have no stats on any of these guys either.

I think calling here is actually weak in the first place. I get why you did it, but you should be playing VERY tight and shouldn't be flatting there. If anything, raise and try to steal (again no stats though).

Flop is SUPER WET.. I mean VERY wet. You do have the K of H.. but is the call fine with no stats? No. Fold the flop and move on.

You didn't, confused why but that is fine. Turn is a bad card for you again.. he checks which just screams that it is a trap.. but again why are you betting there? He isn't c-betting that flop and folding on that turn.

Just my general opinion. I know this is micros, but you really have no hands to get a substantial read. Play straight forward until you can pick up on a read and go from there.

Knittle said:
Again,

You have no hands with these guys, so why are you assuming his range? You have no substantial read on their range and you're putting them on one? Confusing to me.

I am not exactly assuming his range... I am going by board texture... So I am playing the board and not the person. A lot of poker players will c/r a set or 2 pair and when he didn't do that could suggest he does not have that... That is not 100% saying what he is holding on the turn but the board is so wet that he could possibly have a straight draw... This guy could be very fishy type of player... Sure I haven't got many hands to suggest he is or even notes on him... but you can see he is pretty passive, which often indicates a passive fish... As he only min bets UTG there is no way I am folding here... I am getting cheap information to find out what he is playing UTG and now I know

EvertonGirl · Nov 3, 2016

Andrey Smirnov said:
Imo, awful turn decision. To start with, since it is 7-max I am not sure his utg+1 range is pretty tight, so there might be some T9/98 combos sometimes even 87/76 why not its 1.1 tourney. I dont think 3-bet preflop is fine option here.

Okay, on the flop he almost always will c-bet with connectors I have written above, he will often c-bet flush-draws too, for example, some broadways like Ax/QJ/QT/JT and so on. If he flopped a set or he has an overpair he will c-bet almost always on this wet board, because there are many turns which he is scared of. I am not sure he has enough A8s/A7s hands in his range to bet with, but if he has these holdings in his range he will c-bet too sometimes.

What hands we are going to kick from the pot with betting turn? we are kicking here almost only air, sets will push, strong flush-draws wont fold often enough, overpairs like TT wont believe us enough often too imo, some holdings with monster-draw sometimes will even push on the turn . And what holdings we pretend to have here? All sets we would raise on the flop , some weak straights we would raise on the flop too, some strong draws we often would push on the flop too generating some fold-equity. So there arent many holdings we can present here with our turn bet taking into attention our flop-line.

Playing check-call turn opponent is more likely too have strong flush-draws, monster draw sometims( JT of hearts for example). He might play set this way but I dont think so, sets almost never will play this way imo. So, his check-call range on the turn is only about tricky nuts straights, strong flush-draws+pair(for example AQ of hearts), monster-draws ( JT of hearts), pretty many two pairs holdings andpocket 99-AA which dont believe us since our line is pretty strange here.

And I dunno must win continue our bluff on the blank rivers. Maybe even yes than no, but I am not sure he is folding here enough. But I would consider push all-in here on the blanks rivers, we can get here some fold for sure, but how many. But in common, folding on the flop is gr8 idea of course)

I tried the turn bet as I wanted to rep it.... Sometimes you will see a person going for a second barrell when a face cards show as he/she didn't do this, it normally signals weakness. I was doing this for information also... If he had raised, then I would of got the hell out of there as I know I would of been beaten but since he called I thought he is still chasing his draw. When I wrote I was trying to get him off his draw, was kind of wrong on my part, that was not the only reason I decided to bet, it was also to rep the queen.

SaintNick1968 · Nov 3, 2016

I think that flatting pre is okay. It's not an awful hand to three bet with but I think it is strong enough in position to call and play profitably postflop.

The flop is where things go wrong. As people are saying, this is just such a wet board, and it's pretty hard for him to not have anything. At this stage, you are close to the bottom of your calling range, you haven't hit a pair, a flush draw, a straight draw or even a gutshot. You pretty much have the worst thing you can have, and so you need to get out of the way and just fold on the flip with your questionable BDFD. You also have to bear in mind that he is fairly unlikely just to give up on the turn, so if you do improve to a gutshot or a flush draw then that bluff might not even be great.

On the turn, you have gotten yourself into a big issue. Betting definately doesn't seem right at all, as he is unlikely to fold anything at all. Maybe some random AJ or a wide A7s or something but that's not nearly likely enough. The vast majority of the time he just isn't folding here. If he has a decent draw he isn't folding and if he has an 8+ he isn't folding, as you do have a lot of bluffs in this situation. This is such a weak holding and you just can't barrel with so little equity or you will give yourself far too many bluffs compared to value bets.

So I guess it's time for the river then 😉

Hope this helps...

Knittle · Nov 3, 2016

EvertonGirl said:
I am not exactly assuming his range... I am going by board texture... So I am playing the board and not the person. A lot of poker players will c/r a set or 2 pair and when he didn't do that could suggest he does not have that... That is not 100% saying what he is holding on the turn but the board is so wet that he could possibly have a straight draw... This guy could be very fishy type of player... Sure I haven't got many hands to suggest he is or even notes on him... but you can see he is pretty passive, which often indicates a passive fish... As he only min bets UTG there is no way I am folding here... I am getting cheap information to find out what he is playing UTG and now I know

If this is the case, you should be 3betting this hand pre-flop then. If you believe he is a fish, you would be smart to isolate there and play straight forward post-flop. You flop well.
Just my opinion.

trent32la · Nov 3, 2016

Fold pre. This early, this deep, KJo is an awful hand to flat here facing an EP open. I'd flat 76s, 44, JTo here over KJo.

Fold flop. Your opponent is cbetting into 2 people here on a board that whiffs his range and nails yours and the BBs, that should be a warning sign to you that you need to gtfo. You also have the BB still left to act here getting great odds to call with a range that hits a lot on this board.

Flop is a check back with air here. This turn card is better for your opponent's range and you can still bluff rivers that hit yours.

Fwiw, your opponent does not have a draw here very often and is not folding it if so.

EvertonGirl · Nov 4, 2016

Thanks for your input guys.

I can see where I went wrong in this hand, now that I have read all your input.

Here is the result:

River: (1,040, 2 players) 5:spade:
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

UTG+1 shows J:spade: 9:spade: (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 32%, Flop 39%, Turn 25%)
Hero mucks K:heart: J:club: (High Card, King)
(Pre 68%, Flop 61%, Turn 75%)
UTG+1 wins 1,040

I still don't mind the flat pre, but the flop is a clear fold being that he is donking in a 3way pot... That never entered my mind about the BB... I was focusing only on the UTG player which is my first mustake and the turn bet being my second.

PHX · Nov 6, 2016

Preflop that's almost a mandatory call on the button. No shame in folding on flop.

I like the float and the turn bet, if the river was a blank would you have shoved?

Andrey Smirnov · Nov 6, 2016

mandatory call? KJ 7-max unsuited against utg raise, I dont think we can play KJo in decent +ev here. Its marginal call imo. Calling pre, we often will face with tough decisions where we may be under domination by KQ,AK,AJ and etc. If we consider ourselves pretty strong in postflop game ( I cant say this about ts) calling KJo is probably okay, but fold is the better option for me still. It is also useful to check what holdings were profitable for you after session to ensure.

mcgregor_415 · Nov 6, 2016

Preflop call is ok, because of your position, but on the flop it's not so good, because of the draw. Maybe this is where you make mistake. A check on the turn is better, I think, because still the board is very dangerous.

EvertonGirl · Nov 7, 2016

joeisi said:
Preflop that's almost a mandatory call on the button. No shame in folding on flop.

I like the float and the turn bet, if the river was a blank would you have shoved?

Yea.... That was my plan if it didn't complete the straight.

Tomioto3095 · Nov 7, 2016

I don't think you have done right on the flop.. the board is wet, he will probably c-bet the flop. So, or you 3-bet him or fold, because you don't have much information about the villain. When he call the turn, you probably losing whit this hand.. any A is good in this place against you.

theresets · Nov 8, 2016

Interesting spot and I think the hand was played fine. 3betting pre has some merit but I believe calling is the best option. Sometimes you are going to want to float the flop with is what you elect to do, and when you do this you have to stab on a scary turn card such as the Q. When he calls the turn the hand is over for you even though he could still have a sticky draw you have to give up.

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$1.10 NLHE MTT: Would you have bet the turn?

EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

Knittle

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Knittle

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Andrey Smirnov

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EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

SaintNick1968

Visionary

Knittle

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trent32la

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EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

PHX

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Andrey Smirnov

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mcgregor_415

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EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

Tomioto3095

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theresets

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