$1,10 NLHE MTT: When should I have folded or not c-betting

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jrx1908

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With 23bbs, I prefer the fold PF, not short defend this Q4s.
 
bhuelse

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Hmm also an idea. I thought it was not to expansive to call this as BB.
 
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kozong

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calling pre is ok but being OOP, id rather call than donk bet the flop
 
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formertroll

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against three diamonds i'm not sure i like that bet. if he doesn't have the diamonds he would be afraid you do. a check would save you money and also give the impression you could have the nuts.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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Preflop call is fine, you have enough odds to call. And contrary to popular belief, the shorter you are, more often you can call on big blind with speculative hands because your reversed odds are smaller.

On the flop, I don't see any reason to donk-bet. You should donk-bet only and only when the flop hits your range much better than villain's range. That is not really case here. Also, by donking you are weakening your already weak checking range. think about it like this, when you check 100% of your range, you would fold around 45% of your range when villain bets. That is already overfold in most cases. But if you start donking top pairs, then your check-fold frequency jumps to ridiculous numbers. For all these reasons you should plan to play check-call flop and re-evaluate on the turn.

As played, on the turn it's time to slow-down and check-call one street. Yes, villain can have flush draw, but he also might already have it and have ton of hands better than yours. By betting you are value-betting yourself. As played...

River, well, here we go. On the turn you bet was bad. Just bad, because you are at least making villain pay for his draws. Here you don't even have that. There is absolutely no single reason to bet. There is nothing weaker that villain will call, and if he has flush or set you are setting it up perfectly for him to push. Awful play.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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Also, will add one more thing. As I said you should donk when your range on given board is stronger than villains range. On the flop that happens rarely, usually when you are on the BB and the flop come very low, like 652, where you can have all sets and straight and villain can't have them. But, I think on flops it's just better to always check. Don't bother with donks, it is never much more profitable and in many cases can be very expensive mistake. On the turn though, you can have many spots where you can donk. The idea is same. Look for spots where your range improved massively on turn. In those spots you need to start donking one part of your range, because villain in most cases will just check back and you will lose value.

On this flop though, your range is not stronger than villains range, it is weaker.
 
bhuelse

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Thx liuouhgkres for this great analysis.
Your thoughts about donkeybet help me a lot. :)

Small steps to get better, but every step is important for improvement.

Regards
Bhuelse
 
akmost

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Very informative analysis by liuouhgkres here , I also like to add that in those boards where they hit more often by the initial open raiser it's way better for you to check/call and make him reconsider double barreling .In this situation I don't think that he will double barrel with no flush draw blockers.

I rarely donk bet but I don't think that the move is totally wrong , if you have showdown value what's the reasoning behind donk betting?You will make him muck all the hands you want them to continue with.

As for the preflop defend I think is standard ,personally I would have folded Q4 off, defending too tight is a massive leak!

Small steps to get better indeed :)
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Preflop: I like the defend. I'm folding if not suited but with the small raise and the dead antes it's a good defend.

Flop: with starting stacks of 23bb we're going to be happy enouhg to get it in on safe runouts. THAT said, I don't like leading. We basically force him to have something and we lose the value of his Cbet blufss. I'm 100% checking this flop either to check raise or to check call depending on stack sizes and villain tendencies and bet sizings. On this particular flop I'd check call nearly all bet sizes with the plan of jamming or check raise jamming all safe turns (depends on remaining stacks).

As it plays out it's kind of a cooler that you both flop a queen with such shallow effective stacks AND the diamonds brick out so it's even more likely you both get it in. I suppose your line preserved half your stack because you were able to minimize your losses....but that shouldn't really be your goal when you flop a TP of Queens and you're this shallow.

However, by taking a check call/check raise line you capture more value from his bluffs and draws so overall it will net you more chips the times he does NOT have a queen.

FYI: Given his holdings and the runout; I'm stacked by the river here about 80% of the time. so your line preserved your stack at least!
 
akmost

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with the plan of jamming or check raise jamming all safe turns (depends on remaining stacks)

Hello ,

I would like to ask you 2 questions for the above statement:

1) Is it +EV in the long term to make such move on the turn with that boards?We hit the board which is not wet,I don't want to take into account here the potential of a made flush, we lose for not many combinations here, only by sets, overpairs plus with block the Qx combinations.

2) How less likely is for us to make that protective jam if the opponent have us covered? I mean, is it more rational if we have the villain covered in order to protect out hand + apply to him maximum pressure?

Thank you in advance :adore:
 
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standardbog

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Slow down on the turn

Dont mind the call pre-flop or the bet of the flop. I would definitely slow down on the turn though to see what my opponent does. I thought he might have aces or kings there. If the turn goes check, check them I'd call most bets on the river
 
Matt Vaughan

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Lots of good discussion here so far. I am in consensus with the group about preflop being fine (as long as you're comfortable postflop), and disliking the flop bet (see the last parentheses :/ )

And a lot of the issues with betting flop come on the turn and river. We get an EXTREMELY good runout for this hand given that we've taken the betting lead. Yet I think betting turn is VERY suspect, and betting river is decidedly bad. We have the worst queen possible since we have no kicker. He is NOT calling with worse than top pair, and when all the draws miss we should at least check to consider check calling to pick those off rather than betting.

It seems like a bet where he always calls with better and always folds worse, so I'm not a fan of it.
 
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LuisBoaC

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I would fold pre-flop, you're out of position for every following street and the way the hand played out shows how this made villain's decisions easy.
Post flop I don't mind the donk bet, you hit the Q you were hoping for and you had a chance of taking the pot as pairs lower than Q, 2 high cards or certain connectors are all in villain's range that he could fold here.
Once he called the flop you really had no idea where you stood; you could be ahead if villain is playing 2 cards higher than Q, a pair lower than Q or drawing to a flush but you could be behind a pair of aces or kings, a Q better than yours or a made flush. I think you have to check the turn and make your decision based on villain's action and definitely fold if he bets. Top pair with a weak kicker is too easily beaten in this spot.
 
Matt_Burns88

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I don't really like the call pre-flop to be honest. Sure it's essentially a min raise, but you have a crappy hand out of position.
In a full ring table with nearly 24 BB, this is an insta-fold for me.
Folding costs you 200 chips, in the end you lost >2100 with Q4. Q4!!

If you are going to call PF, check to the initial raiser and fold to any aggression, sure you have top pair but look at your kicker - it sucks! Betting is the absolute worst thing you can do in this spot.
 
Jdjakubisin

Jdjakubisin

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I thought I was the only one who raised with QT!

I understand with his stack bigger than yours, you may think he was buying. You should know that if he raises even 2x in a tourney like that he has something on your Q3. Especially know this if he continues in the pot the way that he did.
 
Nathan Smith

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Pre-flop call is fine, but donk betting on the flop with this hand is a mistake - mostly getting called by better. I would check call flop and try to get to cheap show down
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

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Hiho,

I played a hand in a tournamen, with that I was very dissatisfied in the end.

https://www.boomplayer.com/28463185_571EE0F429

I was so fixed on the QQ. What do you think was the best way to play it? Only a bet on flop, or just a check?

regards
bhuelse


Your flat pre-flop is quite fine, even with the fact you have just over 20BB. However, why bet that flop? Can your opponent have KJ AT, AJ, AK, smaller pocket pairs and all sorts of things? Your bet will chase away all the c-bets and you will get no value. Once you got called it narrows opponents range to flushes, some nut or 2nd nut flush draws, pair of Q.

When you bet the turn again on a brick, and get called, It seems as if your opponent does have a Q or possibly KK/AA with a diamond, and sometimes TT/JJ with a diamond. In any case, when that 3 comes on the river just check and hope for a showdown, you will only ever going to be called on the river by better hands. By checking the river you are hoping for a showdown where you will see TT/JJ with a diamond.
 
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