$1.10 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Flop a set and donk bet

madi10 · Nov 15, 2017

So.. Its the first hand of a mtt(9per table) and i'm at the bb.
Everyone folds till the co who raises 3bb. Button and sb both fold.
I have

and decide to call.
The flop is

I know that it isn't good to donk bet, but should't i protect my set from a potential flush?

amitmanchanda · Nov 15, 2017

I will totally bet with a top set. Why to give free card?

shinedown.45 · Nov 15, 2017

madi10 said:
So.. Its the first hand of a mtt(9per table) and i'm at the bb.
Everyone folds till the co who raises 3bb. Button and sb both fold.
I have and decide to call.
The flop is
I know that it isn't good to donk bet, but should't i protect my set from a potential flush?

Bet that flop, don't consider it a donk bet if you hit the flop.

PepeTurtle · Nov 15, 2017

In the dark, heads up against a 3x raise it is fair enough to think villain missed that flop completely once you have top set.

madi10 · Nov 16, 2017

PepeTurtle said:
In the dark, heads up against a 3x raise it is fair enough to think villain missed that flop completely once you have top set.

I was worried about hands like :Ah: :Kh: or similar. Should I expect to win over time checking the flop because the possibility of him having a draw is very small?
Does it matter so much if it is a 3raise, a 2raise or a 2,5 raise? If so.. why?
I think I am safer with a smaller raise because it's more possible for him to have a pair. Or not?

mbrenneman0 · Nov 16, 2017

shinedown.45 said:
Bet that flop, don't consider it a donk bet if you hit the flop.

a donk bet by definition, although named after being bad, is any bet made while a player in a later position has the betting initiative. so yes, this is a donk bet...

whether or not its good, i would prefer it if there was more that the other player can call you with, otherwise he's going to fold a high percentage of the time. if the board was something like KhQh8x it would be better because then villain will have a lot of Kx Qx and straight draw type of hands that can call your bet.

on this board though, youre more likely to get paid by checking and villain will be more likely to cbet (even though its not a good board for him to cbet, most players make the mistake of cbetting too often on boards like this)

so i would prefer a check-call here. if a high non-heart card comes on turn or river, a check raise on the turn, or leading out with a bet on the river will probably be good, just of course be careful if a heart comes. probably better to call one street and maybe check/fold to a river bet in the case of a heart on the turn, and check/call the river if the turn is a non-heart and the river is a heart...

also, im assuming stacks here are somewhat deep? 40bb+?
that would be good information to have if stacks are shallower than 40bb then that changes the whole play

PepeTurtle · Nov 16, 2017

madi10 said:
Does it matter so much if it is a 3raise, a 2raise or a 2,5 raise? If so.. why?
I think I am safer with a smaller raise because it's more possible for him to have a pair. Or not?

Yes it does matter 3x or else. If it is a player that 'follow the guidelines' and he is not getting out of the line he will 3x (even 4x in early stage) any premium hand but: what happens the majority of the times ? Do we get premium hands often ? NO, right ? So it is funny how often these 3x indicates weakness instead (KJo, QJo, Arags, a small PP etc)

So here what I think: 1) if he has a piece of that flop, including draws, he will bet to your check;
2) if he is weak there still a chance he will bet to scoop the pot;
3) if he has some super premium hand he will bet the flop;
4) anything else he is folding to a lead unless guy is a silly station non-believer that levels himself every single hand (!)

In case he checks, any turn is basically good for you to lead because you will have the image either of thin value or a stabber against his perceived weakness.

Best Regards.... and tell us what happened!

Samuel Kollapso · Nov 16, 2017

I would have bet preflop, and on the flop would bet again.
Extract to the maximum ... always the intention

Quads2017 · Nov 16, 2017

Build the pot by betting half the pot! If he has any decent high cards he is boud to call and when he hits his A or K he for sure will call your other bets or even re-raise.

microse · Nov 16, 2017

mbrenneman0 said:
a donk bet by definition, although named after being bad, is any bet made while a player in a later position has the betting initiative. so yes, this is a donk bet...

whether or not its good, i would prefer it if there was more that the other player can call you with, otherwise he's going to fold a high percentage of the time. if the board was something like KhQh8x it would be better because then villain will have a lot of Kx Qx and straight draw type of hands that can call your bet.

on this board though, youre more likely to get paid by checking and villain will be more likely to cbet (even though its not a good board for him to cbet, most players make the mistake of cbetting too often on boards like this)

so i would prefer a check-call here. if a high non-heart card comes on turn or river, a check raise on the turn, or leading out with a bet on the river will probably be good, just of course be careful if a heart comes. probably better to call one street and maybe check/fold to a river bet in the case of a heart on the turn, and check/call the river if the turn is a non-heart and the river is a heart...

also, im assuming stacks here are somewhat deep? 40bb+?
that would be good information to have if stacks are shallower than 40bb then that changes the whole play

I agree almost completely. The heart represents a good bluff card. If you’re up against a good opponent and they bet hard on a heart to put you at a tough decision, he could have the heart or could have been calling with the equity of pairing up a high card (not realizing that’s drawing dead) with the intention to bluff a heart coming. I know it is first hand so knowing much about your opponent would be historical if you’ve played before, but I wouldn’t be too afraid if the flush and would be happy to take advantage of anyone who is afraid of a third of a suit coming.

wildjoker68 · Nov 16, 2017

I Raise pot, or I'm all in" I would figure the CO would now be raising with the low cards to make a str8 and that's a lot to call to chase a flush. the odds are better on my set than a flush at that point. I would be putting him on 2 over cards or a big pocket pair. I would also hope he thinks I'm bluffing and calls. I would also think that I am just 1 more card from a full house, and I know the odds are not very high for that, but they are about as good of odds that his over pair would hit.
there's my playing style. I've won 3 9 man table free rolls this week with over 700 people. peace and happy bank rolling"

wildjoker68 · Nov 16, 2017

How do you like your free rolls?

I like mine with butter and jam" lol....
Peace, and happy bank rolling":hahaha:

GiGiCat · Nov 16, 2017

top set

there is an 11% chance that when two suited cards are on the board that your opponent has two of the same suit in his/her hand. Since they bet out 3bb, I don't put them on a 6,7, and more than likely they have a pocket pair or AQ+.

With that said I would have slow played my set and not bet, let them think they have the best hand and on bet out right on river.

the down side to this is if another Heart comes out and they stop betting, or increase their betting as this will make it a tough decision for Hero.

Regards,
GiGiCat

madi10 · Nov 17, 2017

I like what mbrenneman0 says and i will always check instead of donkbet from now on.

But I dont understand why raising 3bb instead of 2,5bb should put him on a better hand.
I read Harrighton on holdem and he prefers bigger bets with worse hands.
I know that poker is different these days.. Is this enother thing that has changed over the years?

AlexTheOwl · Nov 17, 2017

I agree with mbrenneman, Pepe, and Gigi here.

With top set your goal is to get as much of your opponent's money into the pot as possible. That is best accomplished by checking here. It's unlikely that the villain has a flush draw, and if he does then it is unlikely that he makes a flush.

I don't think you can read anything into a 2.5BB bet compared to a 3BB bet from an unknown villain on the first hand of a micros tournament.

Harrington's advice about maximizing fold equity still applies, but don't assume that your opponent is familiar with it.

AshK44 · Nov 17, 2017

madi10 said:
So.. Its the first hand of a mtt(9per table) and i'm at the bb.

Everyone folds till the co who raises 3bb. Button and sb both fold.

I have and decide to call.

The flop is

I know that it isn't good to donk bet, but should't i protect my set from a potential flush?

I agree you should bet to protect against the flush. You have to make the opponent pay if they are going to outdraw you. Aggressive play here is the right play. You have a great hand so good call.

Gabinho12345 · Nov 17, 2017

You would be protecting against flush draw by check-raising. Flush draw would cbet anyway and by donking you don't get flush draw to fold. But the best play is to check call to protect your weaker one pair hands and get some value when your opponent has missed the flop completely.

playinggameswithu · Nov 17, 2017

This hand has a lot of "pull" if a gutshot or a flush get there you probably going to lose another 3/4 pot with a call. Tough to fold a set of 8's a lot of opponents like bluffing flush boards especially when you check to them.

liuouhgkres · Nov 17, 2017

Generally good advise is to never donk bet, because it is close to impossible to balance it. Also, you are not giving villain chance to bluff.

Declan Quinn · Nov 19, 2017

This has happened to me so many times and always a player or players there I try to get the chips there and then but always especially past few tournaments I've lost to runner runner str or flush each time...

PepeTurtle · Nov 20, 2017

madi10 said:
I was worried about hands like :Ah: :Kh: or similar. Should I expect to win over time checking the flop because the possibility of him having a draw is very small?
Does it matter so much if it is a 3raise, a 2raise or a 2,5 raise? If so.. why?
I think I am safer with a smaller raise because it's more possible for him to have a pair. Or not?

So, it happened to me this morning and I kind remembered of this thread.

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/8612966

Of course it is different because I have position and villain is opening from EP, but it is early stage first few hands. It is just to show what I've said about 3x openings early stage, I have no or little worries on this flop concerning a flush draw.

Best Regards

mbrenneman0 · Nov 20, 2017

PepeTurtle said:
So, it happened to me this morning and I kind remembered of this thread.

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/8612966

Of course it is different because I have position and villain is opening from EP, but it is early stage first few hands. It is just to show what I've said about 3x openings early stage, I have no or little worries on this flop concerning a flush draw.

Best Regards

well played IMO

eidikos · Nov 25, 2017

hi!
check is the better move for me there.
you cant scare the flush draw there with 3bb raise pre in a deep stack tournament
also with this flop most times he had nothing
so you check and 3 bet a raise or if he checked back you bet the turn

$1.10 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Flop a set and donk bet

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