$1.05 NLHE MTT Rebuy: $1.05 NLHE MTT Rebuy: A 2 Suited, villain shoves on turn, dry board. My move?

$1.05 NLHE MTT Rebuy: $1.05 NLHE MTT Rebuy: A 2 Suited, villain shoves on turn, dry board. My move?

trbark (UTG): 3,220 (40 bb)
Iceman3112 (UTG+1): 8,836 (110 bb)
Sparty1974 (MP): 1,197 (15 bb)
ChinoBl1ng (MP+1): 5,945 (74 bb)
4sided (LP): 5,017 (63 bb)
20RICH18 (CO): 3,000 (38 bb)
sportsguy16 (BU): 4,368 (55 bb)
BuzzMan004 (SB): 4,650 (58 bb)
towry (BB): 5,605 (70 bb)

Pre-Flop: (120) Hero (sportsguy16) is BTN with 2♥ A♥
trbark (UTG) calls 80, 1 fold, Sparty1974 (MP) raises to 1,197 (all-in), 1 fold, 4sided (LP) calls 1,197, 1 fold, sportsguy16 (BU) calls 1,197, 3 players fold

Flop: (3,791) 6♠ 4♦ K♥ (3 players, 1 all-in)
4sided (LP) bets 948, sportsguy16 (BU) calls 948

Turn: (5,687) 7♣ (3 players, 1 all-in)
4sided (LP) bets 2,872 (all-in), sportsguy16 (BU) calls 2,223 (all-in)

River: (10,133) A♠ (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: 10,133

Showdown:
4sided (LP) shows 4♣ 4♥ (three of a kind, Fours)
(equity - Pre-Flop: 53%, Flop: 94%, Turn: 90%, River: 100%)

Sparty1974 (MP) shows 8♥ A♦ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 33%, Flop: 2%, Turn: 10%, River: 0%)

sportsguy16 (BU) shows 2♥ A♥ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 14%, Flop: 4%, Turn: <1%, River: 0%)

4sided (LP) wins 10,133



When I called the shove, I figured he would have bet and not called any pocket pairs or overcards. So I had the villain with next to nothing.

sportsguy16 said:

trbark (UTG): 3,220 (40 bb)
Iceman3112 (UTG+1): 8,836 (110 bb)
Sparty1974 (MP): 1,197 (15 bb)
ChinoBl1ng (MP+1): 5,945 (74 bb)
4sided (LP): 5,017 (63 bb)
20RICH18 (CO): 3,000 (38 bb)
sportsguy16 (BU): 4,368 (55 bb)
BuzzMan004 (SB): 4,650 (58 bb)
towry (BB): 5,605 (70 bb)

Pre-Flop: (120) Hero (sportsguy16) is BTN with 2♥ A♥
trbark (UTG) calls 80, 1 fold, Sparty1974 (MP) raises to 1,197 (all-in), 1 fold, 4sided (LP) calls 1,197, 1 fold, sportsguy16 (BU) calls 1,197, 3 players fold

Flop: (3,791) 6♠ 4♦ K♥ (3 players, 1 all-in)
4sided (LP) bets 948, sportsguy16 (BU) calls 948

Turn: (5,687) 7♣ (3 players, 1 all-in)
4sided (LP) bets 2,872 (all-in), sportsguy16 (BU) calls 2,223 (all-in)

River: (10,133) A♠ (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: 10,133

Showdown:
4sided (LP) shows 4♣ 4♥ (three of a kind, Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 53%, Flop: 94%, Turn: 90%, River: 100%)

Sparty1974 (MP) shows 8♥ A♦ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 33%, Flop: 2%, Turn: 10%, River: 0%)

sportsguy16 (BU) shows 2♥ A♥ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 14%, Flop: 4%, Turn: <1%, River: 0%)

4sided (LP) wins 10,133



When I called the shove, I figured he would have bet and not called any pocket pairs or overcards. So I had the villain with next to nothing.

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I mean no offense, just shooting you straight, this hand was not played well at any point.

Pre
Always is a strong word in anything, especially Poker, but this is always a fold pre-flop.

If……if, you wanted to mix in a pre-flop 3-bet jam here, I may be semi-ok with it in a very specific dynamic (and with >50BB’s in an MTT, I’m struggling to think of any applicable dynamic) – that’s as far as I’m prepared to go though.

Flop
Ok, we already made a huge mistake pre-flop – do anything (just fold) but call.

Turn
Two mistakes, and big ones, again - do anything (just fold) but call. (Although, by this point we have ~50% of our stack in the middle…so….it doesn’t really matter anymore).

River
I’m not sure what we expected to happen.

This is a great example of what not to do. I know A2s looks real pretty, and you’re OTB – I’ve been there, I promise, “I could take a flop here and see….. Maybe I’ll like it”.

If, we can do so without violating the 5/10 rule (link included), I’m much more willing to go ahead and call pre-flop here. However, in this case we’re putting >25% of our stack in, in what essentially involves a really low equity situation. Sure, a flush is nice, but that’s 118:1. Additionally, we’re in an MTT with >50BB’s, so even if we’re within the range of the 5/10 rule, I’d still lean towards a fold simply from tournament strategy (or ICM concerns if we’re at a stage where that’s in play).

On the upside, no one played this hand well. We have an A8o 15BB shove, which is essentially poker-cide and totally unnecessary – a clear mis-understand of everything. The 44 overcall from the HJ-ish when the overcall is 25% of his stack is even worse – at least the A8o has some fold equity.

Fold this pre and move on next time.

Hey man - thanks so much for the honest review, was extremely helpful, thanks for taking the time for the detail! The 5/10 rule is really helpful too. I'm a total beginner, profitable in cash games but not MTT's so working towards it lol.

sportsguy16 said:

Hey man - thanks so much for the honest review, was extremely helpful, thanks for taking the time for the detail! The 5/10 rule is really helpful too. I'm a total beginner, profitable in cash games but not MTT's so working towards it lol.

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Ok, well, welcome to the grind!

Just to give you an idea, what kinds of hands you should be calling here, I've attached Upswings' "BTN facing HJ RFI" (Raise First-in) chart - green is call. I've also attached the entire PDF booklet as well (well, shit, never mind, it's too big - and it looks like you have to sign up to the mailing list to get the charts https://upswingpoker.com/preflop/).

Now, full disclosure, these ranges are default, they are tailored for live Poker (you can download the online ranges as well from Upswing), and they make no considerations for stack sizes. In other words, even though this charts says to call A8s and 33, both would be horrible in the hand you've posted above - so ranges get narrower as stacks sizes, and our own stack depth decrease - but...this gives you an idea.

I don't mind the call pre-flop, nor the call on the flop to an extent, but on that turn what are you calling with? You literally don't beat anything other than air. Unless you've got an insane read on villain you've just gotta throw your hand.

thatgreekdude said:

I don't mind the call pre-flop, nor the call on the flop to an extent, but on that turn what are you calling with? You literally don't beat anything other than air. Unless you've got an insane read on villain you've just gotta throw your hand.

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C'mon man - are you serious? Did you look at the stack sizes involved here?

As someone else has already said, calling preflop with this hand is a pretty big mistake, when someone is all in for 15 blinds, and another player has called. There is something called the gap concept in poker, and what it basically mean is, that you need to stronger hand to call than bet. So while you are obviously always going to play A2s on BTN, when it folds around to you, with heavy action like this in front of you, you need to be disciplined and get out of the way. AQs and 99 would also be a fold here, and even hands like TT, JJ and AK could be folded, if you want to take a conservative approach and preserve your tournament life.

But anyways here we are, and we have to play postflop, as best we can. You flop a flushdraw and face a small bet. I am also just calling this. You are getting good enough odds to draw, and I dont see any point is raising and going all in. The reason is, that when one guy is already all in, the other guy can never be bluffing here. He has to have a hand, because even if he get you to fold, he still need to beat the all-in guy at showdown. So you are always behind here, and you have no fold equity, and this is why, just calling is the best play.

On the turn he put you all in, and now its really just a math decision. You need around 22% equity to break even on a call, and you simply dont have that here against a realistic range. Sure a set is worst case, since you only have 7 outs, but you can not count on your A being live outs all that often, and even with 9 outs you are still not close to 22%.

Also in a tournament there is something called ICM to consider. It basically mean, that the extra chips, you win, are not worth as much as those, you lose. If you fold, you are still in the tournament with around 28 BB, which is absolutely a playable stack. Continuing with those 28BB will net you more value in the long run than having a huge 125BB stack, when you call and win, even if we incorrectly assume, that you are going to win 22% of the time.

Pre: bad
Flop: worse
Turn: worst


Pre: MP is shoving 15bb, LP Cold calls the all-in, calling behind is really bad. we are behind against those ranges. what were you thinking About the other 2 Players Hands?
flop: okay, we made a very loose call, but still got a healthy stack behind (40bb); we have a terrible flop for A2s with only Backdoor draws. If the A hits we have a massive kicker Problem. still you call a 12bb cbet; what was your Intention to call here? which turn and river Cards do you hope for? A A? 2 2? A 2?
turn: so we made a bad call pre and post flop, but we still have About 30bb behind and a nice stack to continue if we fold. well, only if we fold, but you decide to call an all-in with A high. just ask yourself what you could beat here. literally NOTHING. QJ QT JT? I don't think LP would call with those Hands an preflop all-in. there are no draws in his range unless 55 A5. and even with an ace on the river we are drawing dead to any other A except A3 where we chop.

sportsguy16 said:

Hey man - thanks so much for the honest review, was extremely helpful, thanks for taking the time for the detail! The 5/10 rule is really helpful too. I'm a total beginner, profitable in cash games but not MTT's so working towards it lol.

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as a profitable cash game Player: would you Play the Hand the same in cash games? if not, why Play it like that in MTTs? the early stage of a MTT can be played like a cash game with Deep stacks of 50+bb.

fundiver199 said:

As someone else has already said, calling preflop with this hand is a pretty big mistake, when someone is all in for 15 blinds, and another player has called. There is something called the gap concept in poker, and what it basically mean is, that you need to stronger hand to call than bet. So while you are obviously always going to play A2s on BTN, when it folds around to you, with heavy action like this in front of you, you need to be disciplined and get out of the way. AQs and 99 would also be a fold here, and even hands like TT, JJ and AK could be folded, if you want to take a conservative approach and preserve your tournament life.

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what range would you put LP on? I might fold 99 aswell because we can't call for set value, but not sure About folding AQs or TT
I would not fold JJ AK here. depending on LP's stats I wouldn't mind to reshove if he is a calling Station (high VPIP/limp total, low PFR/RFI/3B) even with 50bb.
I think the Cold call is more likely weakness than a Monster.

fundiver199 said:

You flop a flushdraw

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the Colors are a bit confusing so i had to look twice aswell, but the flop is rainbow and there is only a Backdoor flushdraw. the turn gave us the 4th Color and it's impossible for anyone to make a flush.

Veritas said:

Pre: bad
Flop: worse
Turn: worst


Pre: MP is shoving 15bb, LP Cold calls the all-in, calling behind is really bad. we are behind against those ranges. what were you thinking About the other 2 Players Hands?
flop: okay, we made a very loose call, but still got a healthy stack behind (40bb); we have a terrible flop for A2s with only Backdoor draws. If the A hits we have a massive kicker Problem. still you call a 12bb cbet; what was your Intention to call here? which turn and river Cards do you hope for? A A? 2 2? A 2?
turn: so we made a bad call pre and post flop, but we still have About 30bb behind and a nice stack to continue if we fold. well, only if we fold, but you decide to call an all-in with A high. just ask yourself what you could beat here. literally NOTHING. QJ QT JT? I don't think LP would call with those Hands an preflop all-in. there are no draws in his range unless 55 A5. and even with an ace on the river we are drawing dead to any other A except A3 where we chop.





as a profitable cash game Player: would you Play the Hand the same in cash games? if not, why Play it like that in MTTs? the early stage of a MTT can be played like a cash game with Deep stacks of 50+bb.

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I was trying to build my stack - I would have folded or maybe called the bb in late position in a cash game. When do the early stages of an mtt end in your opinion? When the stacks reach an average of 20 bb?

sportsguy16 said:

I was trying to build my stack - I would have folded or maybe called the bb in late position in a cash game. When do the early stages of an mtt end in your opinion? When the stacks reach an average of 20 bb?

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well that's not a good way to build a stack

not sure if there is a definition for early stage and when it ends.
back in the days I would have said when ante comes into play, but most tournaments start with ante nowadays on pokerstars.
I would say late stage ends somewhere between the end of late reg and the bubble.

Veritas said:

the Colors are a bit confusing so i had to look twice aswell, but the flop is rainbow and there is only a Backdoor flushdraw. the turn gave us the 4th Color and it's impossible for anyone to make a flush.

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You are right, and then postflop is obviously terrible. As I wrote already, Villain is never bluffing here, because even if we fold, he still need to beat the other guy at showdown. And also we still get to see his hand. So even if he does show down some silly bluff, then at least we can make a note like “idiot” and look to get sticky against him in future hands.

Veritas said:

what range would you put LP on?

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LP also needed a really strong hand to justify getting involved here. Something like TT+, AQs+, AK. The issue with this situation is, that noone can win more than 15 BB from the short stacker, but everyone behind him are risking 38-70 BB against each other, if they get involved without closing the action. So people have a huge incentive to fold, which is part of the value of jamming as the short stacker in this spot.


Of course this apply less to 1 dollar tournaments, where many players just cant fold pretty looking hands preflop to any kind of action. Everyone involved in this situation overplayed their hands. A8o should just have folded from early position, and so should both 44 and A2s with this action in front of them.

ssbn743 said:

C'mon man - are you serious? Did you look at the stack sizes involved here?

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I don't know what I was smoking when I wrote that comment tbh, i've no idea why he'd even call pre-flop.

Preflop call is not good. On the flop, I would just shove. Once you call the flop, might as well put the rest in on the turn. Its a decent pot at that point.

QA77 said:

Preflop call is not good. On the flop, I would just shove. Once you call the flop, might as well put the rest in on the turn. Its a decent pot at that point.

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You realise, that he only flopped A high and backdoor draws? When I first looked at the hand, I thought, he flopped a flushdraw, but that was not the case.

fundiver199 said:

You realise, that he only flopped A high and backdoor draws? When I first looked at the hand, I thought, he flopped a flushdraw, but that was not the case.

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Ooops! I really thought I read it as a flush draw. Flop call is obviously not good then. Fold button should be used here lol