$055 NLHE MTT Bounty: AA versus limpers: to shove or not to shove.... :D !

mst32ro

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It is corect ( or not...) to shove with AA versus limpers n early stage of an MTT ??
 

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Andrey Smirnov

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I would bet around 400, maybe more.
 
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ph_il

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Jamming ~48 BBs into a ~6 BB pot w/ AA is a bit ridiculous.

What is your goal here? Do you want them to call a 48 BB shove preflop? What hands do you think are going to call you here that limp in preflop? If you're lucky, you'll get someone calling you off, but I wouldn't be surprised if you got all folds and you picked up a measly 6 BB pot with AA and missed out on a ton of value.

If your goal is to get everyone fold, then you probably succeeded. Congrats on increasing your stack by 12.5% with the best preflop hand. If your goal is to get everyone to fold when you have AA, the question is...why? Why do you want them to fold? What are you afraid of?

Of course, this also depends on how your opponents have been playing. If they had been play pretty loose preflop and making some really loose calls with marginal hands, then maybe shoving was the best option. But, from with the info I have, a raise would have been the better option. I'd bump it up to ~440-465.

If your stack was shorter, maybe ~1.8K, then a shove would have been fine. As played, your stack is just to big to make a shove a profitable play unless you're in a cooler situation with KK vs AA. Most of the time, you're giving up a ton of value with this shove.
 
PHX

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Raise around 500-600 no need to shove. Your position isn't great but with the betting lead and first to act you should be fine. The goal would be to get your stack in on the turn without looking too strong.
Shoving here is pointless as you will be lucky if you get a call in this spot. By not shoving also give your opponent a chance to re raise you whether they have or not. It looks like a good spot for squeeze I would raise here sometimes with any 2 cards.
 
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trent32la

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Guys, I'm not sure if you noticed that this is a Knockout tournament, it's the early stages, and every person covers Hero. We are going to get called extremely light in this spot given the buyin.

When we rip it in here, do you think any of our opponents are going to put us on QQ+ here? Never. If this is a regular Freezout tourney, I'd make it 700-800 here, because this is a KO tourney, shoving is completely fine.
 
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trent32la

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Raise around 500-600 no need to shove.
Your position isn't great but with the betting lead and first to act you should be fine.

Being out of position it's going to be harder to get value postflop and more likely we take AA multiway.

The goal would be to get your stack in on the turn without looking too strong.

If players are calling a shove pre light, then our goal would be to get it in pre with huge equity.

Shoving here is pointless as you will be lucky if you get a call in this spot.

Disagree, this is a knockout tourney and players love to go bananas early for bounties, I'd expect to get a shove called here pretty often. Our hand doesn't look like AA at all here either.

By not shoving also give your opponent a chance to re raise you whether they have or not.

No...people are not going to be limp-raising an SB squeeze here in a $0.55 MTT. They are going to be limp calling most of all their range.

It looks like a good spot for squeeze I would raise here sometimes with any 2 cards.

This is actually a pretty terrible spot to squeeze light. It's early and we're deep stacked in a $0.55 knockout tourney, these limpers are not going to fold here to a squeeze with anything half-decent. Raising ATC here would be suicidal against these players.
..
 
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Muzyka1996

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raise to 579

there many players did call when you go all-in for your bounty
 
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ph_il

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Guys, I'm not sure if you noticed that this is a Knockout tournament, it's the early stages, and every person covers Hero. We are going to get called extremely light in this spot given the buyin.

When we rip it in here, do you think any of our opponents are going to put us on QQ+ here? Never. If this is a regular Freezout tourney, I'd make it 700-800 here, because this is a KO tourney, shoving is completely fine.
That is a good point.
 
StArDemonn

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I wouldn't shove there but I would raise big...
 
Tech101205

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First of all I think Shoving AA especially in this kind of Tourney is not a bad move as theres 50 % chance you will get called most of the time as its being a KO tourney & also micro one , people dont care much
and at the same time we can also play this hand in other way which is standard
With So many limpers in pot and tourney being KO one
I would raise it to 600 and Be aggressive on flop & Post flop

It can Be played in either way
 
Gh0stL

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For me is a good because after that is difficult to fold AA
 
PHX

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Totally disagree with all of your comments but there many ways to play a hand.

A shove here is a waste of AA in my opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no need to rip on someone's comments just because you don't agree :)
 
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trent32la

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Totally disagree with all of your comments but there many ways to play a hand.

A shove here is a waste of AA in my opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no need to rip on someone's comments just because you don't agree :)
I don't really see how I was "ripping" on your comments. I did not insult you, I gave a full explanation of why I felt each comment was incorrect with regards to the situation.

If you disagree with all of my comments I'd like it if you would explain why, this is a poker forum discussion and we are here to learn and exchange ideas.
 
PHX

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I don't really see how I was "ripping" on your comments. I did not insult you, I gave a full explanation of why I felt each comment was incorrect with regards to the situation.

If you disagree with all of my comments I'd like it if you would explain why, this is a poker forum discussion and we are here to learn and exchange ideas.


No you did not insult me, your post came across as a bit condescending I am guessing now it was not your intention. I have not seen anyone breakdown a comment here like that and also there were other posts in this thread saying similar things to what I said and you only singled mine out. Anyways no biggie.

Explanation for why I disagree comes down to the answer to a simple question:

Would you call a 50 bb shove preflop of a person that shoved into 5 players? If yes then you should shove if no then you cannot shove.

This is level 7 into a tournament which is about more than 40 minutes into the tournament so a lot of the loose gamblers are already out. Need to make full use of AA you only get them ever so often. We don't cover anyone so we can gain no bounties right now so our goal should be to chip up.

Position will not matter post flop we already have the betting lead and first to act on all streets with the intention of barrelling on all. We want to take the flop multi ways top pair isn't folding, middle pair isn't folding draws are not folding. Yes our chances of winning the pot may decrease sometimes but we will give our self a chance to win more chips this way. AA is not the hardest hand to play post flop.

Preflop by not shoving we give a medium strength hand the opportunity to shove to isolate or call. Hands like 88 and A10 may not call a shove but they might shove a small raise to isolate for our bounty.

With regards to the light squeeze play it is something I would do and I am sure there are others that will as well. I only referenced it to show that other players at the table might view it as a light squeeze and may come over the top.

Cheers
 
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lampis111

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Bet 3x plus one blind for every limper...
 
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JPainTrainSicko

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+1 on everything Trent32la has said in this thread
 
AKApokeruga

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Explanation for why I disagree comes down to the answer to a simple question:

Would you call a 50 bb shove preflop of a person that shoved into 5 players? If yes then you should shove if no then you cannot shove.

This is level 7 into a tournament which is about more than 40 minutes into the tournament so a lot of the loose gamblers are already out. Need to make full use of AA you only get them ever so often. We don't cover anyone so we can gain no bounties right now so our goal should be to chip up.

I think that you may expect call for your all-in anytime when you play freroll. At 40 minute and even at 140.

So I think in this situation we have another problem: we may get too much calls. AA have different chances to play with many opponents.

AA vs:
1 opp: 88%
2 opp: 76%
3 opp: 68%
6 opp: 44%
9 opp: 34%

So if KO rules gives you good reward for knocking out the opponents - you may all-in. If not - it's better to make raise and see flop to be sure about win or lose.
 
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trent32la

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No you did not insult me, your post came across as a bit condescending I am guessing now it was not your intention. I have not seen anyone breakdown a comment here like that and also there were other posts in this thread saying similar things to what I said and you only singled mine out. Anyways no biggie.

Was certainly not my intention. I felt your post was detailed enough to break down and only did so to help you and others. Will break down your post here and give my opinion of what I think.

Explanation for why I disagree comes down to the answer to a simple question:

Would you call a 50 bb shove preflop of a person that shoved into 5 players? If yes then you should shove if no then you cannot shove.

Very, very rarely would I do so. However in poker it's not about how you view the lines you take, it's about how your opponent's will. The majority of your opponents in a $0.55 KO tournament are not going to be thinking like that.

This is level 7 into a tournament which is about more than 40 minutes into the tournament so a lot of the loose gamblers are already out. Need to make full use of AA you only get them ever so often. We don't cover anyone so we can gain no bounties right now so our goal should be to chip up.

I still think plenty of loose gamblers are still in the field. Assuming the starting stack was 5k in this, a starting stack is still worth 50-60bbs, that's on the larger side for MTTs in general. This is also a $0.55 MTT, so there will be a lot more punters in this field compared to a $22 MTT, for example. The fact that we don't cover anyone makes me more likely to rip AA in here. If players can win a bounty by calling off, they are more likely to call off wider than if they did not cover us.

Position will not matter post flop we already have the betting lead and first to act on all streets with the intention of barrelling on all. We want to take the flop multi ways top pair isn't folding, middle pair isn't folding draws are not folding. Yes our chances of winning the pot may decrease sometimes but we will give our self a chance to win more chips this way. AA is not the hardest hand to play post flop.

This I certainly agree with, we can't be worried about 3+ people limp calling and a terrible flop coming, especially when players in these games are sticky with a made hand.

Preflop by not shoving we give a medium strength hand the opportunity to shove to isolate or call. Hands like 88 and A10 may not call a shove but they might shove a small raise to isolate for our bounty.

This is where I completely disagree. You need to think at the level of the average player in this tourney. If they have a medium strength hand like 88/AT, they aren't going to limp/shove on us if we make a standard iso raise here, they are going to limp call and want to see a flop. If we jam AA in here, some may put us on AK or a random spaz and call it off knowing they can win a bounty right there. There's also the chance one of the limpers makes a light call.

With regards to the light squeeze play it is something I would do and I am sure there are others that will as well. I only referenced it to show that other players at the table might view it as a light squeeze and may come over the top.

You are clearly thinking on a higher level than the average player in this tournament. In the later stages, a light squeeze here will be much more effective than in the early stages with rather deep stacks. From my experience, rarely ever will players read an SB squeeze as light and limp/shove. They don't want to let go of their hand, however they don't want to put their stack at risk, so they will limp/call.
Cheers
..
 
deucefactory

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raising to 579 is the correct play as someone said before.
 
PHX

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Got two callers, I guess my analysis was wrong.
Really unlucky river.
 
Gabinho12345

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Given it's 0,55$ buyin and it's a bounty tournament you are most likely to get called by at least one opponent so it's not a terrible shove.
 
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what-is-a-4bet.png


I would put 319
 
antonis32123

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mst32ro you were very unlucky on that hand , I mean getting called by the big stack with AQ ok , but J10s and first to call all in ( allthough I think I've heard it's thebest hand against AA or am I wrong ??) ? But regardless result , shoving or raising for 600-700 would be the right move on that position to isolate more limpers and get called by one or two at the most .
 
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