$0.50 NLHE STT: Should I have folded to his shove here?

G

Gugan111

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 44/17/0.5

poker stars, $0.44 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.


Hero (SB): 1,200 (40 bb)
BB: 880 (29.3 bb)
UTG+2: 1,450 (48.3 bb)
MP1: 1,035 (34.5 bb)
MP2: 1,720 (57.3 bb)
MP3: 3,800 (126.7 bb)
CO: 1,465 (48.8 bb)
BTN: 1,950 (65 bb)


Preflop: Hero is SB with 9d 8d
UTG+2 calls 30, 5 folds, Hero raises to 120, BB calls 90, UTG+2 folds


Flop: (270) 8s Ks 9s (2 players)
Hero bets 240, BB raises to 760 and is all-in, Hero calls 520


Turn: (1,790) 4c (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: (1,790) 6s (2 players, 1 is all-in)


Results: 1,790 pot
Final Board: 8s Ks 9s 4c 6s
Hero showed 9d 8d and lost (-880 net)
BB showed 2s 3s and won 1,790 (910 net)



My thinking for the call was he could easily have had a single spade and shoved his draw as a short stack. Also thought I have outs if he does have it.
 
ZenGreen

ZenGreen

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Never folding hands as strong as 2 pair or sets on this board. His jam doesnt always mean a made flush, those are very rare. AsX is getting it in here, really any broadway spade. Also many player freak out when draws happen and start jamming, so any Kx would also be racing against the board. Plus since you have most of the 8s and 9s, 2 pair will be much harder for villan to have. and you have outs still in case you are beat. But oh well fire up another one, and dont fold this spot next time just cause of this hand.
 
EvertonGirl

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Going by villains stats I would of folded when he shoves here.

When I have played a fish like this, they are calling stations and you don't often see them shoving unless they have it. That would of been an alarm going off in my head. I would probably have called if I knew that he/she is shoving a wide range, but he doesn't look aggressive enough to me.
 
NHequalsFU

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Not enough of a raise from your c-bet to consider folding.

I wouldn't be playing 98s this early in a single table sng.
 
EvertonGirl

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I didn't actually notice how much you were getting. You have to call as betting there you have priced yourself in to call.

Betting and folding to a raise is a huge no-no when he only has $760 behind.
 
A

acealldway

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Overbetting wasn't the best decision

When you noticed that Spades showed up, you should have placed a low bet to evaluate if he got spades, as most people bet higher than you min. bet.
 
1dkp0k3r

1dkp0k3r

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Villain in this hand has 660 behind in a pot of 270 SPR of 2.44. Add your bet of 240, 660 into 510SPR of 1.3, he will be shoving Kx, Asx, all combo draws (JT one spade, QJ one spade, QT one spade, 76 spade, etc) any flush, maybe any straight draw without a spade, a very wide range, making your call pretty standard


Flop bet size prices you into calling. If you were wanting to have the option of bet folding here on the flop, a bet of around 90-105 would have been the line to take.
 
Robmrjet

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You should not have folded.

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 44/17/0.5

Poker Stars, $0.44 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.


Hero (SB): 1,200 (40 bb)
BB: 880 (29.3 bb)
UTG+2: 1,450 (48.3 bb)
MP1: 1,035 (34.5 bb)
MP2: 1,720 (57.3 bb)
MP3: 3,800 (126.7 bb)
CO: 1,465 (48.8 bb)
BTN: 1,950 (65 bb)


Preflop: Hero is SB with 9d 8d
UTG+2 calls 30, 5 folds, Hero raises to 120, BB calls 90, UTG+2 folds


Flop: (270) 8s Ks 9s (2 players)
Hero bets 240, BB raises to 760 and is all-in, Hero calls 520


Turn: (1,790) 4c (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: (1,790) 6s (2 players, 1 is all-in)


Results: 1,790 pot
Final Board: 8s Ks 9s 4c 6s
Hero showed 9d 8d and lost (-880 net)
BB showed 2s 3s and won 1,790 (910 net)



My thinking for the call was he could easily have had a single spade and shoved his draw as a short stack. Also thought I have outs if he does have it.


8 PLAYER Table
1st BLIND LEVEL
MP3 has already doubled his stack, PLUS another 800 (more than 2 1/2 times)
BTN has increased his stack 400
BB is down almost 700 chips
HERO....is down 300 chips


Did I mention?...1st BLIND LEVEL on an 8 player table?? And all 8 players are STILL at the table, 2 of the players still having pretty much the starting chip stack of 1500??

I'm thinking that this was probably somewhere in the first 4 or 5 hands of the game???
(feel free not to answer)


NO, you should not have folded.

You should not have raised to 120 in the SB either.

I can elaborate if you wish, but honestly, I would rather not.

I will tell you this though, if you have to ask IF you should have folded, here in the CardsChat forums.....then you need to be studying alot of plays, hands, and reading and watching some games from the sidelines. There are some really bright people here on CardsChat that teach you things, guide you, and make you a better poker player.

I'm not that guy.
I'm just the guy that can see the obvious, and is really blunt about pointing it out, not meaning no offense, just making the point.

You need to be asking these guys on here that are GREAT communicators, that know how to help you with your weaknesses, to help you. They'll do it.

You should never have made that SB raise.
After that...you were committed.
(reasons why are varied)

All those chip stack amounts, the blind level, told volumes on that hand.

What level were you at when you were knocked out with that AQ vs QQ?
Just curious.

good luck at the tables
 
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Gugan111

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I'm getting the message I shouldnt be opening this loosely preflop, I will re-evaluate my preflop game as I thought an open here was pretty standard. Thanks for all the responses & help guys!!
 
1dkp0k3r

1dkp0k3r

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I'm getting the message I shouldnt be opening this loosely preflop, I will re-evaluate my preflop game as I thought an open here was pretty standard. Thanks for all the responses & help guys!!



Open raise, no. This is a good 3 bet hand against a late open later in a tournament. Early on, complete the bet from the SB, :9d4::8d4: plays very well multi way
 
Robmrjet

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Open raise, no. This is a good 3 bet hand against a late open later in a tournament. Early on, complete the bet from the SB, :9d4::8d4: plays very well multi way

I agree.

Exactly what I think.
There was no reason to not just limp'n call at the small blind with that hand, see the flop...THEN make a decision on that flush draw coming, or existing.
Especially that EARLY in the game going in front of a short stack that has, most likely (his chip stack size is my only indicator) , already shown that he's willing to take LOOSE risks and bet on anything just because he can.

No harm in limping at SB, even with AK when you're to the right of a player that's willing lose all his chips in the first level of a game, for whatever reason he's willing to do it. He's a dangerous player.

AND...you never know what that 3rd player folded out the hand with.....he had enough chips to make up ANYTHING you might have lost to that short stacked BB.
You did flop 2 pair afterall....and you never know what you might have gotten out of that 3rd player.
I often lose a little...just to gain a tiny amount. OFTEN!!

Understanding:
I was in a freeroll tournament 2 nights, or so ago. I was 2nd in chips.
I had about 48k in chips.
Average chipstack was about 18K
CHIP LEADER had like 250k!!

We go to break.
We come back from break...and that HUGE STACK CHIP LEADER...was sat on my left.
(let me give a real good "clears my throat" right here)
I'm now seated to the RIGHT of this MASSIVE donky chip stack, that has me covered ..his 250k to my 48k...

HE kept preflop raising..astronomically. 4x, 5x 6x..the BB.

I kept folding.
small PP
mid PP
10 10..or better....
folded AK, AJ, AQ...
FOLDED ...ACE ACE!!

I just kept folding.

about 3 minutes BEFORE the next Blind Level...he was DOWN to about 125K in chips..and I was now in 4th position in chip stack......AND...

I caught the BB...
A A......

He donked.....allin......everyone folded off....
I prayed and called.
I won the hand.

BUT...if I had not seen ALL those hands he had played to lose all those chips....
I may have folded again.


Limping into the hand at SB is a good thing.
Folding...is a great thing.
KNOWING what the other guy plays...is a super duper thing.


but then.....
I lose alot of games too. :D:D:D:D

again, just my uneducated experience.
((of losing alot):icon_joke:icon_joke

:burnout:
 
Gabinho12345

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Limp preflop, as played you should never be folding on the flop.
 
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wilywiles

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heads up, this is somewhat of a set up hand. However, with a board like that firing out a bet puts you in a vulnerable situation. Now a top pair drawing hand will shove. That's if he doesnt have the flush already as in this situation. Next time, try keeping the pot smaller. You have a hand that is relatively strong but that doesnt mean you want to commit your chips unduly. This situation, tho, more than likely wouldve got your chips in whether you checked first or not.
 
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popstani

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If I see correctly, it’s STT and you’re on SB in early stage. My thinking is that you are did wrong. You have to limp there and to fold against aggression because there are 3 spades and you don’t have anyone. So it’s early stages and there’s much time to collect enough chips with better hands and in better position. Sometimes you have to fold good hands to win
 
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anytime you are playing on a 3card flush board, i recommend playing cautiously. Be it you flop a set, or in this case two pair, in both cases I recommend playing cheap pots but especially two pair. I would've recommended checking here. more than likely he would've pushed all in and you would've called anyways. He was short enough to where the call still made sense. But for future references, try to keep the pot cheap, especially if you are first to act. Betting into a board like that can put you in a situation where you have to much committed to the pot to let go. Even if you have the best hand on the flop, it can easily be out drawn, if you arent drawing yourself to complete a boat because you are facing an already made flush like here. All-in-all, thats poker, you had a good enough hand, but think more about what your bet will accomplish
 
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Gugan111

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Thanks for all the replys guys, not only helpful for when I encounter this spot again but really helps me think about how I should be analysing my future hands post play :)
 
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ucdengboss

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After your bet on the flop and his shove in I calculate you need to only call 520 more to win 1270. There is no way I am folding here with two pair. Too often you are ahead and you still have outs if he flopped a flush (this is pretty rare).

On another note why not limp this hand? You have a nice suited connector in the SB where you already have a limping player. Seems like a place to limp along for cheap. Most of the time you flop nothing and dump the hand. Every once in a while you hit a flush, straight, 2-pair, etc and may be able to win a monster pot. I just don't see the value of a 3X raise and playing out of position. Did you ahve any read on the BB when you decided to raise pre? If he is willing to call with a 23s his range is very wide and you will be playing out of position against him far too often for a pre flop raise to be profitable. If he were a nit then maybe you can get away with stealing sometimes and the raise may have value. In general I limp pre flop though.
 
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TDTODDY

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Limping makes it easier to throw away even w/ 2 pair. However, I would have played exactly like you did after a limp. No reason to put a short stack on a flopped flush.
 
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