$0.50 NLHE STT: Bluff with 46s

I Live Poker

I Live Poker

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Total posts
3,013
Awards
5
Chips
101
pokerstars, $0.45 + $0.05 - Hold'em No Limit - 75/150 (15 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

karver_8 (UTG): 1,354 (9 bb)
seri192 (UTG+1): 1,411 (9 bb)
John Moler (MP): 1,470 (10 bb)
sirnosedvoid (MP+1): 153 (1 bb)
Lu3265 (LP): 311 (2 bb)
LUISPSUAREZ (CO): 5,375 (36 bb)
alexmac002 (BU): 2,589 (17 bb)
Dara_Koss (SB): 1,657 (11 bb)
1Milhão$emNada (BB): 2,013 (13 bb)

Pre-Flop: (360) Hero (1Milhão$emNada) is BB with 4 6
7 players fold, Dara_Koss (SB) raises to 300, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) calls 150

Flop: (735) A 3 2 (2 players)
Dara_Koss (SB) bets 450, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) calls 450

Turn: (1,635) 9 (2 players)
Dara_Koss (SB) checks, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) checks

River: (1,635) 7 (2 players)
Dara_Koss (SB) bets 300, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) raises to 1,248 (all-in), Dara_Koss (SB) folds

Total pot: 2,235
1Milhão$emNada (BB) wins 2,235
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
PokerStars, $0.45 + $0.05 - Hold'em No Limit - 75/150 (15 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

karver_8 (UTG): 1,354 (9 bb)
seri192 (UTG+1): 1,411 (9 bb)
John Moler (MP): 1,470 (10 bb)
sirnosedvoid (MP+1): 153 (1 bb)
Lu3265 (LP): 311 (2 bb)
LUISPSUAREZ (CO): 5,375 (36 bb)
alexmac002 (BU): 2,589 (17 bb)
Dara_Koss (SB): 1,657 (11 bb)
1Milhão$emNada (BB): 2,013 (13 bb)

Pre-Flop: (360) Hero (1Milhão$emNada) is BB with 4 6
7 players fold, Dara_Koss (SB) raises to 300, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) calls 150

Flop: (735) A 3 2 (2 players)
Dara_Koss (SB) bets 450, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) calls 450

Turn: (1,635) 9 (2 players)
Dara_Koss (SB) checks, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) checks

River: (1,635) 7 (2 players)
Dara_Koss (SB) bets 300, 1Milhão$emNada (BB) raises to 1,248 (all-in), Dara_Koss (SB) folds

Total pot: 2,235
1Milhão$emNada (BB) wins 2,235


The pre-flop call is really bad here, and even worse than it would be normally due to stack sizes. Sorry but this is a fold pre-flop all day long. I may occasionally and situationally be ok with a pre-flop jam as a bluff, but villain has 11BB and has already committed 2 (or 1.5 more).

In a nutshell, and not be dick, but you didn't make a single correct decision in this hand. Just because it's HU doesn't justify this play - we always must think in terms of profitability - this is never profitable over time and you were lucky villain was a noob and folded to a 4BB stack.
 
D

D_godfather

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Total posts
34
Chips
0
Probably better to run bluff lines post flop when potential flushes exist too?

If SB is constantly raising the BB, with a short stack what is the bottom of the range we can take a stand with, i assume its always a straight shove too.
 
Nr98

Nr98

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Total posts
589
Chips
0
The pre-flop call is really bad here, and even worse than it would be normally due to stack sizes. Sorry but this is a fold pre-flop all day long. I may occasionally and situationally be ok with a pre-flop jam as a bluff, but villain has 11BB and has already committed 2 (or 1.5 more).

In a nutshell, and not be dick, but you didn't make a single correct decision in this hand. Just because it's HU doesn't justify this play - we always must think in terms of profitability - this is never profitable over time and you were lucky villain was a noob and folded to a 4BB stack.


Lol what are you talking about. Preflop is a 100% call (though a jam is probably viable too in some situations). It's a minraise SB v BB. On these stacks that's literally almost an any 2 call. You really think 64s does not realise 20% equity here, IP even?

It's fine giving out advice, but don't take such a degrading tone if you got no clue what you're talking about...

Pre: call is fine (def +EV, and it would have to be a very specific Villain to make jamming higher EV)

Flop: just fold. Couple of reasons:
1. Most of our Aces and pp should be jamming pre. So we don't represent much on a jam.
2. V bet leaves him with very little behind, in most cases this is quite committing so a float is not too profitable.

Turn/River: not relevant shouldn't exist.

Edit: Just to clarify, yes I agree with you that the postflop line is not profitable. And discussion is definitely very valuable, just try to do this in a constructive way instead of (wrongly) roasting OP without proper arguments.
 
I Live Poker

I Live Poker

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Total posts
3,013
Awards
5
Chips
101
The pre-flop call is really bad here, and even worse than it would be normally due to stack sizes. Sorry but this is a fold pre-flop all day long. I may occasionally and situationally be ok with a pre-flop jam as a bluff, but villain has 11BB and has already committed 2 (or 1.5 more).

In a nutshell, and not be dick, but you didn't make a single correct decision in this hand. Just because it's HU doesn't justify this play - we always must think in terms of profitability - this is never profitable over time and you were lucky villain was a noob and folded to a 4BB stack.


yes i know it's not profitable in the long run but i posted exactly for that reason, it's not just a card and range game and ICM value bluff ... it's a game of people and i had some information about the villain
 
I Live Poker

I Live Poker

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Total posts
3,013
Awards
5
Chips
101
Lol what are you talking about. Preflop is a 100% call (though a jam is probably viable too in some situations). It's a minraise SB v BB. On these stacks that's literally almost an any 2 call. You really think 64s does not realise 20% equity here, IP even?

It's fine giving out advice, but don't take such a degrading tone if you got no clue what you're talking about...

Pre: call is fine (def +EV, and it would have to be a very specific Villain to make jamming higher EV)

Flop: just fold. Couple of reasons:
1. Most of our Aces and pp should be jamming pre. So we don't represent much on a jam.
2. V bet leaves him with very little behind, in most cases this is quite committing so a float is not too profitable.

Turn/River: not relevant shouldn't exist.

Edit: Just to clarify, yes I agree with you that the postflop line is not profitable. And discussion is definitely very valuable, just try to do this in a constructive way instead of (wrongly) roasting OP without proper arguments.

yes yes thank you
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Lol what are you talking about. Preflop is a 100% call (though a jam is probably viable too in some situations). It's a minraise SB v BB. On these stacks that's literally almost an any 2 call. You really think 64s does not realise 20% equity here, IP even?

It's fine giving out advice, but don't take such a degrading tone if you got no clue what you're talking about...

Pre: call is fine (def +EV, and it would have to be a very specific Villain to make jamming higher EV)

Flop: just fold. Couple of reasons:
1. Most of our Aces and pp should be jamming pre. So we don't represent much on a jam.
2. V bet leaves him with very little behind, in most cases this is quite committing so a float is not too profitable.

Turn/River: not relevant shouldn't exist.

Edit: Just to clarify, yes I agree with you that the postflop line is not profitable. And discussion is definitely very valuable, just try to do this in a constructive way instead of (wrongly) roasting OP without proper arguments.

Raise/Fold all day - just like I said. Preferably fold - do you really want me to advocate staking our event life on 64 because we only need 20% equity in a field where villains are enormously value heavy on raises?

While it's true that we only need 20% equity here, what happens when we miss? Fold to 11BB's. Raw equity is not good enough - this isn't a cash game.

So, like I said, raise as a bluff or fold - never call with stacks sizes, ever...

And I'm not roasting - he asked, I answered. Apologies if my language too harsh for the snowflakes.
 

Attachments

  • Capture.jpg
    Capture.jpg
    20 KB · Views: 15
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
yes i know it's not profitable in the long run but i posted exactly for that reason, it's not just a card and range game and ICM value bluff ... it's a game of people and i had some information about the villain

First - you didn't include, or even hint at, said "information" in your post. How was I supposed to know that and factor it into my response?

Second - are you really claiming to be playing the player with 13BB vs 11BB? You know what she thinks you don't know, that you do know, so call, you know? And online no less? I guess you're better than me. It's pretty amazing you knew that villain would open and fire 2 barrels from an 11BB stack and fold to your river jam leaving herself 4BB's - man.....you got skillz - thought about moving up?

Lastly - the entire point of this forum is to learn. Maybe I was a little curt in my response, but did you really want me to sugar coat it - so you can learn nothing. Seems like you want this to be more of a brag post.
 
Nr98

Nr98

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Total posts
589
Chips
0
Raise/Fold all day - just like I said. Preferably fold - do you really want me to advocate staking our event life on 64 because we only need 20% equity in a field where villains are enormously value heavy on raises?

While it's true that we only need 20% equity here, what happens when we miss? Fold to 11BB's. Raw equity is not good enough - this isn't a cash game.

So, like I said, raise as a bluff or fold - never call with stacks sizes, ever...

And I'm not roasting - he asked, I answered. Apologies if my language too harsh for the snowflakes.

Couple of things:
1. That chart is complete BS. There's no way, all those mid-low PP and Ax are a flat. What source is it from (and more importantly what stack size, it looks slightly more like a 40bb ish stack just on top of my head)?
2. Since you're building your argument on the chart. Your own chart even advocates 72s being a flat. You prove my point yourself here?
3. Yes in tournaments we should consider ICM. But we're in a single table SNG where noone has busted yet. So if you think ICM is that big that it makes 64s a fold here, I'd suggest you go study the concept first.
4. You're talking about staking our event life on 64. That's not entirely true. Would I call a jam on 64s here? No ofcourse not. The difference is, we're facing a minraise, we're IP and there's almost 4bb in the pot already. Invest 1bb, potential to win 4bb or more, easy as. Yes ICM is somewhat of a factor but no way that a $EV of a fold > than $EV call.
5. A sb minraise on 10bb being value heavy in a 0.50 sng? It's more like they're button clicking tbh.
6. Yes raw equity is not enough, but we're going to realise even more equity (2 reasons: 1. we're IP, although this is minimized by our stack depth; 2. Pop does not x/jam nearly enough so we overrealise our equity). ICM is a factor, but in this scenario so far away from the money on these stacks it's negligible for our decision to call or fold (again, a jam may be viable too but that really depends on V's tendencies, a call is way higher EV against general population imo).



That's what I'm trying to say, it has nothing to do with people being snowflakes. But you put up an attitude and lack a proper foundation for it. Focus on your argument if you want to help teaching OP.

Edit: to clarify, we're talking preflop here. That postflop is a snapfold yes I agree.
 
S

ssbn743

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Total posts
543
Awards
1
Chips
0
Couple of things:
1. That chart is complete BS. There's no way, all those mid-low PP and Ax are a flat. What source is it from (and more importantly what stack size, it looks slightly more like a 40bb ish stack just on top of my head)?
2. Since you're building your argument on the chart. Your own chart even advocates 72s being a flat. You prove my point yourself here?
3. Yes in tournaments we should consider ICM. But we're in a single table SNG where noone has busted yet. So if you think ICM is that big that it makes 64s a fold here, I'd suggest you go study the concept first.
4. You're talking about staking our event life on 64. That's not entirely true. Would I call a jam on 64s here? No ofcourse not. The difference is, we're facing a minraise, we're IP and there's almost 4bb in the pot already. Invest 1bb, potential to win 4bb or more, easy as. Yes ICM is somewhat of a factor but no way that a $EV of a fold > than $EV call.
5. A sb minraise on 10bb being value heavy in a 0.50 sng? It's more like they're button clicking tbh.
6. Yes raw equity is not enough, but we're going to realise even more equity (2 reasons: 1. we're IP, although this is minimized by our stack depth; 2. Pop does not x/jam nearly enough so we overrealise our equity). ICM is a factor, but in this scenario so far away from the money on these stacks it's negligible for our decision to call or fold (again, a jam may be viable too but that really depends on V's tendencies, a call is way higher EV against general population imo).



That's what I'm trying to say, it has nothing to do with people being snowflakes. But you put up an attitude and lack a proper foundation for it. Focus on your argument if you want to help teaching OP.

Edit: to clarify, we're talking preflop here. That postflop is a snapfold yes I agree.

- I am not saying the chart is Gospel, and it makes no considerations for stack sizes. It’s just a default chart, from BB facing SB RFI. All that said, it is the Upswing chart, which I don't think I'll get much disagreement in saying that it is the gold standard. Nonetheless, it is just a chart that we all know is kind of bullshit.

- You're right in noting that 72s is shown as a call but seem to not have a good grasp of combinatorics. I'm not sure how folding 64s and calling 72s proves your point - we're simply talking number of combo's to raise/call/fold to create a balanced strategy or merged range - whichever terminology you prefer.

- The chart is just a default - however, when the effective stack gets egregiously low, and when our own stack falls into the same category - everything changes. We should be looking for hands to get it in with, and neither 64s nor 72s is going to make the cut, without a very, very good reason - and we're certainly not flat calling nearly anything.

- With 20BB's-ish effective, I can get behind flat calling 64s here. There is a lot of recent solver work that will support that as well, (I'll attach the closest applicable chart), but we don't have 20BB's here. There isn't even solver work completed (and not sure if there ever will be) on flat calling 11BB's effective in position or out with 13BB's ourselves.

- Further, cash game solver work is going to support calling 64s as well - but for obvious reasons, makes no considerations to stack size (Chart attached as well).

- Now the solver charts, are just charts same as above. However, they are moving closer and closer towards Gospel as more and more work is being done. And there are lots of concepts within these charts that I have a hard time accepting, like the 80% flat call of AA in this spot with 20BB's.

- The biggest take-away from this hand IMO, is how valuable that extra BB becomes when applied to FE, or value in future hands. This may seem like splitting hairs, what's 1BB when we could win 5BB's? But this is the edge - particularly in a STT.



Apologies for my tone yesterday, bad day and I was in a bad mood, but I still prefer the say and spray it approach here – I wouldn’t expect any fluff if it was the other way around.
 

Attachments

  • 20BB_BB_BTN_Solver.jpg
    20BB_BB_BTN_Solver.jpg
    20.2 KB · Views: 8
  • Cash_BB_SB_Solver.jpg
    Cash_BB_SB_Solver.jpg
    19.4 KB · Views: 8
Andrey FRIFIN

Andrey FRIFIN

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Total posts
90
Awards
1
Chips
4
I think you will succeed)
 
Nr98

Nr98

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Total posts
589
Chips
0
- I am not saying the chart is Gospel, and it makes no considerations for stack sizes. It’s just a default chart, from BB facing SB RFI. All that said, it is the Upswing chart, which I don't think I'll get much disagreement in saying that it is the gold standard. Nonetheless, it is just a chart that we all know is kind of bullshit.

- You're right in noting that 72s is shown as a call but seem to not have a good grasp of combinatorics. I'm not sure how folding 64s and calling 72s proves your point - we're simply talking number of combo's to raise/call/fold to create a balanced strategy or merged range - whichever terminology you prefer.

- The chart is just a default - however, when the effective stack gets egregiously low, and when our own stack falls into the same category - everything changes. We should be looking for hands to get it in with, and neither 64s nor 72s is going to make the cut, without a very, very good reason - and we're certainly not flat calling nearly anything.

- With 20BB's-ish effective, I can get behind flat calling 64s here. There is a lot of recent solver work that will support that as well, (I'll attach the closest applicable chart), but we don't have 20BB's here. There isn't even solver work completed (and not sure if there ever will be) on flat calling 11BB's effective in position or out with 13BB's ourselves.

- Further, cash game solver work is going to support calling 64s as well - but for obvious reasons, makes no considerations to stack size (Chart attached as well).

- Now the solver charts, are just charts same as above. However, they are moving closer and closer towards Gospel as more and more work is being done. And there are lots of concepts within these charts that I have a hard time accepting, like the 80% flat call of AA in this spot with 20BB's.

- The biggest take-away from this hand IMO, is how valuable that extra BB becomes when applied to FE, or value in future hands. This may seem like splitting hairs, what's 1BB when we could win 5BB's? But this is the edge - particularly in a STT.



Apologies for my tone yesterday, bad day and I was in a bad mood, but I still prefer the say and spray it approach here – I wouldn’t expect any fluff if it was the other way around.
It's all good mate. Now this is some actual stuff we can work with.

Yeah I thought it was upswing already judging by the layout. US charts are fine, but this particular one (from your initial post) is for bigger stacks though so not applicable here.

Facing a minclick on 10bb, I'd say we'd jam/call/fold our entire range (I think we agree that 3B is out of the question right).

Since you're talking number of combo's for a balanced strategy; Even purely theoretical (which I don't think is relevant for a 0.50 tourney), V could exploit you hard if you start folding 64s. He literally auto-profits from minbetting his entire range (he auto-profits if we don't at least defend 61.5%).

So if we're talking about small edges. We better start defending these hands or V is just printing money off a min-raise. This won't give him a small edge this is a gigantic leak.

Besides the auto-profit argument, 64s is also a profitable call purely isolated (which obviously should be the most important consideration). So if the call is profitable, AND if we don't we allow V to auto-profit, how can we ever fold?


Also not the main argument here, but regarding your comments on solver work:
*While it is true that cash game charts don't take future hands into account. But do you genuinely think the effect of a tiny bit of extra FE in future hands outweighs the extra pot odds because of antes?
*The reason why AA becomes a call quite often on 20bb has to do with a couple of things: 1. We give the stacks behind us an opportunity to jam on top (if we're not BB).
2. AA does not need protection (a reason why we jam low pockets bb v sb on 20bb)
3. We're so shallow that it is very easy to play for stacks postflop (as a default there's already between 5-7bb in the pot which gives us an SPR of around 2). This reduces the need to build a pot preflop.
4. We block quite a big portion of hands V can call our jams with.
 
I Live Poker

I Live Poker

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Total posts
3,013
Awards
5
Chips
101
First - you didn't include, or even hint at, said "information" in your post. How was I supposed to know that and factor it into my response?

Second - are you really claiming to be playing the player with 13BB vs 11BB? You know what she thinks you don't know, that you do know, so call, you know? And online no less? I guess you're better than me. It's pretty amazing you knew that villain would open and fire 2 barrels from an 11BB stack and fold to your river jam leaving herself 4BB's - man.....you got skillz - thought about moving up?

Lastly - the entire point of this forum is to learn. Maybe I was a little curt in my response, but did you really want me to sugar coat it - so you can learn nothing. Seems like you want this to be more of a brag post.




I'm not disagreeing friend, your reflection and analysis is correct, if you notice in other posts, I play a decent game and put hands on that I didn't really understand the action or had difficulties ...
But this one I posted exactly to relax, a strange bluff with a call squeze on the flop, really looking only at the action it seems strange but as he had notes that he was a very safe and weak player, it was easy, in fact he always plays slow with hands premium and always bet by bluff. That's why I posted this hand, because posting only hands that played right and everything went wrong is normal, but I hardly see people posting wrong plays, but I totally agree with your line, I just don't agree to fold pre flop ... Thanks for your time
 
Top