$0.50 NLHE MTT Turbo: HJ shoving 15 BBs s&g bubble

tewwa94

tewwa94

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I'm the chip leader of the FT of a half dollar sit&go, I have AJs and decided to just shove, since the charts I check for short stack situations say that is a push hand, and I shouldn't get called by a lot since it's literally the bubble. I think it's just a f*** cooler, but I have some questions. Is shoving the only correct play? What if I raise/fold vs the bigger stacks? what about ICM considerations?

PokerStars - 500/1000 Ante 60 NL - Holdem - 8 players


BB: 11.99 BB (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 22.03, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 64)
UTG: 4.9 BB (VPIP: 11.84, PFR: 10.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 76)
UTG+1: 2.69 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
MP: 3.83 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
Hero (MP+1): 15.14 BB
CO: 12.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
BTN: 9.65 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
SB: 6.79 BB

8 players post ante of 0.06 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.98 BB) Hero has A:club: J:club:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 15.08 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 10.93 BB and is all-in

Flop: (24.85 BB, 2 players) A:spade: 8:club: Q:heart:

Turn: (24.85 BB, 2 players) K:spade:

River: (24.85 BB, 2 players) 3:club:

BB shows A:heart: K:heart: (Two Pair, Aces and Kings)
(Pre 71%, Flop 83%, Turn 91%)
Hero shows A:club: J:club: (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 29%, Flop 17%, Turn 9%)
BB wins 24.85 BB
 
MrSkinny

MrSkinny

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Heya tewwa94

I'm the chip leader ... the charts I check for short stack situations say that is a push hand...

Why are you playing SS strategy when you're chip leader?

:confused:

Mr Skinny
 
J

Jamuka7657

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He only had 15 BBs. Yeah he is chip leader but he can still blind away pretty fast.

I think shoving AJs here is good. Raise/folding could be considered if the min cash is significant.
 
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TDTODDY

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Ajs are touny killers everywhere you look. It seems like a great hand, even unsuited, but it's not. I'v gone ot on it so many times I really can't count. Still, it was the right move.
 
MrSkinny

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He only had 15 BBs. Yeah he is chip leader but he can still blind away pretty fast.

I think shoving AJs here is good. Raise/folding could be considered if the min cash is significant.
I call bullshit
 
slurredreaction

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AJ is a tricky hand. I never want to see an A on the flop, I prefer J high being the flop. I always end up out kicked when I hit the A on the flop. TO be honest I prefer 10J instead. Wins more for me than AJ does.
 
lsbenn

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I am with MrSkinny, Why are you shoving if you are the chip leader? Were you trying to steal the antes and blinds and it back fired on you? This just does not make since.
 
MrSkinny

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@Jamuka7657 ~ sorry mate, that came out a bit harsh. My bad
 
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ElegantFish

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Seems like a perfectly fine shove to me and you're just unlucky to run into a better hand and then to lose to that better hand.
 
tewwa94

tewwa94

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I am with MrSkinny, Why are you shoving if you are the chip leader? Were you trying to steal the antes and blinds and it back fired on you? This just does not make since.


so you are saying that I should've raise/call or raise/fold? Being chip leader doesn't mean that much on a turbo where everyone is 15 BBs or less, the good thing about it is I don't bust out if I happen to be beaten when I get called, which means that, yes, I can steal and play my strong hands for stacks to try to eliminate the shorter stacks.

I shoved because I didn't wanted to be the one making the hard decision of calling a big part of my stack risking winning the tournament. I would probably fold but I'm not totally sure tbh, maybe I'd have called and then posted the same hand. Maybe it was a mistake because it was a FT, I don't want to be results oriented anyway, so it's good to read different opinions.
 
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xbursonicx

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I assume that was SNG for 45 players where 7 places are paid.

IMO you didn't have to use short stack strategy at the time because it wasn't just a bubble but effectively a ladder, with 3 players being extremely short. Whereas you risked your tournament life with non-premium hand in attempt to steal the blinds.

Such hand would be great to attack the shortest stacks (less then 5 BB here) but the only players left to act had stacks comparable to yours.

So I'd just fold that hand as moving up the ladder seemed imminent.
 
MrSkinny

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Heya tewwa94 & all,

I'm not really saying whether or not you should have shoved. I'm suggesting this:

Yes, turbo creates time pressure, but that does not mean that you are short stacked. Take a snapshot of the hand - it is what it is regardless of the tourny structure. You were not SS no matter how you look at it, so playing SS strategy was IMO wrong. So it might be the right call, but for the wrong reasons.

The other players were under much more pressure than you to get wins. Let them fight over the scraps. A few more hands of observation to pick your targets. And I do appreciate the difference in mindset between being at the table and being in the forums!

Good luck all,
Mr S
 
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MrTerek

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I'm the chip leader of the FT of a half dollar sit&go, I have AJs and decided to just shove, since the charts I check for short stack situations say that is a push hand, and I shouldn't get called by a lot since it's literally the bubble. I think it's just a f*** cooler, but I have some questions. Is shoving the only correct play? What if I raise/fold vs the bigger stacks? what about ICM considerations?

PokerStars - 500/1000 Ante 60 NL - Holdem - 8 players


BB: 11.99 BB (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 22.03, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 64)
UTG: 4.9 BB (VPIP: 11.84, PFR: 10.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 76)
UTG+1: 2.69 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
MP: 3.83 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
Hero (MP+1): 15.14 BB
CO: 12.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
BTN: 9.65 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
SB: 6.79 BB

8 players post ante of 0.06 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.98 BB) Hero has A J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 15.08 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 10.93 BB and is all-in

Flop: (24.85 BB, 2 players) A 8 Q

Turn: (24.85 BB, 2 players) K

River: (24.85 BB, 2 players) 3

BB shows A K (Two Pair, Aces and Kings)
(Pre 71%, Flop 83%, Turn 91%)
Hero shows A J (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 29%, Flop 17%, Turn 9%)
BB wins 24.85 BB


Regular Tur(10-15 min) openraise - fold, turbo - shove. U played well, dont think about that hand more.
 
nml

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I agree that it’s a shove/fold situation. I also agree that you can’t operate as chip leader here with just 15 BBs

I disagree with your logic that you are unlikely to get called - you still had four people to act after you, and they are only likely to call with hands that have you crushed (like AK). Even if they only shove with the top 10% of hands, you are getting called a third of the time

Shove/fold charts don’t take ICM into consideration - which would definitely tell you to fold

In this situation, you are looking for premium hands or situations where your odds are too good not to call.
 
akmost

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Since it's a turbo , since you are the CL etc just open raise , so much ICM here. If you were short stacked it would be fine to open shove. It is catastrophic that the BB here woke up with a monster. Open raise and based on the following players act accordingly. Don't tell me that AJs is a call against a 3bet of the two other big stacks. At the best case scenario it will be a flip AJs is so overrated.

You could won this tournament even if you had at this stage of the tournamemt 5bbs because it is a turbo structured one.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Alright, this is a bubble spot, so perfect time for an ICM calculator use again.

I'm assuming this is a 45-man on Stars, so I'm plugging in those payouts and the stack sizes from above.

It's important to note that while everyone is arguing about what constitutes "being short stacked" here, it's not really the most relevant factor. The most relevant factor are how short the OTHER stacks are, and the fact that we cover EVERYone. We can put ANY other player at risk. This means that based on the stack distribution, the shorties are trying to outlast each other, and the medium stacks should absolutely try to outlast the shorties.

Now that being said, it's still a 50c SnG so it's not like everyone's going to be an expert when it comes to ICM, but my gut still says we should be stuffing it all in here with a LOT of hands. Certainly with AJs, and it's not close.

Here's what ICMizer says:
62a306592609b706b035b1fa30bcf8e5.png


This is saying that Hero should push 64% of hands. And if you look at the calling ranges behind for each opponent, they are supposed to call off EXTREMELY TIGHT. Which is why jamming so wide is profitable.

Not close at all. Players behind are calling with like 2-4% of hands if they call correctly... It doesn't mean they never wake up with the top 4% of hands.
 
Jon Poker

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This is certainly a tricky spot. AJs is definitely a shove from where so there isnt anything wrong with your play in particular - you just got unfortunate running into a bigger hand.

On the bubble like this i am not sure if i play this any different or not...I know you risk blinding out, losing your chip lead, etc if you dont play here but with other stacks at your table looking to go out at any moment is it really worth it to play AJ?

Really hard choice...I think I end up going broke there just like you...because if i dont raise and i limp, either way I hit my top pair, the blinds dont LIKELY have me beat if they didnt raise me back preflop or just checked when I limped so effectively I overplay top pair and go broke.

Bubbles are always tricky to play. A small buy in home tournament we were playing in only paid top 2 unless the game was not over by midnight - in which case the prize pool would be split evenly and the game over.

A woman on the short stack shoves all in with about 16 BBs with AKo and gets snap called by AA...its 11:58pm and she cannot take either of us other 2 stacks out of the game and she goes all in...she missed out on cashing because she couldn't wait two minutes.
 
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