$0.25 NLHE MTT: QQ on KAK flop IP

Devojeff

Devojeff

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poker stars, $0.01 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools by CardRunners - Hand Details

UTG+2: 1,360 (68 bb)
MP1: 1,530 (76.5 bb)
MP2: 1,430 (71.5 bb)
MP3: 1,650 (82.5 bb)
CO: 1,440 (72 bb)
Hero (BTN): 1,460 (73 bb)
SB: 1,460 (73 bb)
BB: 1,500 (75 bb)
UTG+1: 4,820 (241 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q:spade: Q:diamond:
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls 20, MP1 calls 20, 2 folds, CO calls 20, Hero raises to 100, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls 80, MP1 folds, CO calls 80

Flop: (350) K:spade: A:spade: K:diamond: (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets 119, UTG+2 calls 119, CO calls 119

Turn: (707) 4:spade: (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

River: (707) 3:diamond: (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

That's a pretty standard situation i face a lot and got lost a lot too lol.

So, oponents are very loose and call stations, looking now with time i think i should check flop, since they would fold worst hands than mine like JT, JT...

Turn standard check i guess?

River i think they would have to bet with any K or A right? Should i value bet then?
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Scary flop against two villains who called pre-flop raises, and therefore have a lot of Ax in their ranges.
I check.
How did you choose your c-bet bet sizing? I wouldn't make a value bet on this board where there is such a good chance that we are behind. If I did bet the flop, it would be to get my opponents to fold. Betting 1/3 pot into two players you describe as calling stations is not going to do that. Calling stations will call you here with weak aces, under-pairs, flush draws, and gutshots.

The turn completes any flush draws. But the good news is that no one bets. It's normal for anyone with a strong hand on the flop to check to you, the pre-flop aggressor. But normally on the turn, strong hands would bet for value. I'd bet 2/3 of the pot here, with a plan of folding to any further aggression.

As played, you've reached the river, and you are closing the action.
I think we can safely say no one has a K, a flush, a full house, or an Ace with a strong kicker, or they would have bet.
You'd like to get value from hands like under-pairs.
Your only fear is that one of your opponents has an Ace that they have been afraid to bet, because of a low kicker and the flush on the board. How aggressive are they post-flop?
I suspect that most players with even a weak Ace would have bet the river, since no one has shown any sign of strength on any street. I'd bet about half the pot here.
 
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AviCKter

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There are a lot of A-rag lovers on that stakes.

I would have checked the flop, bet the turn (if checked to) and checked the river. People don't value bet enough, but will call down a bet, so can't bet the river.
 
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kozong

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pre flop raise id go 140 - 160

checking the flop & betting/calling the turn 1/3 - 1/2 pot

river is a check for me, Ax is a common hands people limp with
 
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trent32la

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Larger pre, people do not like to limp/fold. I go 160-200.

Flop is a complete spew, and I'm not sure why you would ever bet flop without the intention to fire 3 streets here as a bluff. You have to decide on the early streets how you are going to play the later streets. If you don't plan on bet/bet/jamming here then check flop because we have a small amount of SDV and aren't getting much worse to call a flop bet.
 
AlexGrinStar

AlexGrinStar

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I would have played the same way...
bet on the flop to see where we are, and check / fold for aggression...
 
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trent32la

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I would have played the same way...
bet on the flop to see where we are, and check / fold for aggression...

Betting to "see where you at" is one of the worst reasons to make a bet or raise.
The main reasons for making a bet are to: Get better hands fold, get worse hands to call, or deny considerable equity. Does betting this flop with the intention to fold to resistance on later streets fit any of those reasons with our hand?
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

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not necessarily ... sometimes a standard С-bet helps you win already on the flop...



C betting accomplishes nothing here because our opponents have tons of Ax and Kx and are unlikely to fold
 
AlexGrinStar

AlexGrinStar

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Betting to "see where you at" is one of the worst reasons to make a bet or raise.
The main reasons for making a bet are to: Get better hands fold, get worse hands to call, or deny considerable equity. Does betting this flop with the intention to fold to resistance on later streets fit any of those reasons with our hand?

poker, this is a game of information, and to know it, you need to bet!
and when you check and the opponent puts, you will not know whether this is a bluff or he can bet on the value he puts...:смущенный:
 
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AlexTheOwl

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poker, this is a game of information, and to know it, you need to bet!
and when you check and the opponent puts, you will not know whether this is a bluff or he can bet on the value he puts...:смущенный:

Ok, tell us what information the hero gained from this c-bet.
 
AlexGrinStar

AlexGrinStar

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C betting accomplishes nothing here because our opponents have tons of Ax and Kx and are unlikely to fold

But a small bet on the flop gives you the opportunity to see an inexpensive river, where you can close the flush draw...
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

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But a small bet on the flop gives you the opportunity to see an inexpensive river, where you can close the flush draw...



There just isn't any value in betting. Checking gets you the cheapest turn for sure if that's what you are thinking
 
AlexGrinStar

AlexGrinStar

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Ok, tell us what information the hero gained from this c-bet.

bet on the flop, I find out whether they are hooked or not ... if I squeezed, then most often in my range will be A or K...
against calling stations, you can consider the second barrel as an option ... it all depends on how you read your opponents ... what range do you ask ... are you ready to portray K or flush?... poker is interesting because there are different options for development ...))

here take your words for example:

"Your only fear is that one of your opponents has an Ace that they have been afraid to bet, because of a low kicker and the flush on the board. How aggressive are they post-flop?
I suspect that most players with even a weak Ace would have bet the river, since no one has shown any sign of strength on any street. I'd bet about half the pot here."

you understand that if the opponents of the calling stations, they easily call your bet into the floor of the bank ... you do not knock out an ace with a weak kicker here on the river...
 
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AlexTheOwl

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bet on the flop, I find out whether they are hooked or not ... if I squeezed, then most often in my range will be A or K...
against calling stations, you can consider the second barrel as an option ... it all depends on how you read your opponents ... what range do you ask ... are you ready to portray K or flush?... poker is interesting because there are different options for development ...))

I asked what information the hero gained from the c-bet in this hand.
You responded by talking about what might have happened in a hand where you squeezed.

You seem to be defending the general idea of c-bets. No one here is attacking the general idea of c-bets.

here take your words for example:

"Your only fear is that one of your opponents has an Ace that they have been afraid to bet, because of a low kicker and the flush on the board. How aggressive are they post-flop?
I suspect that most players with even a weak Ace would have bet the river, since no one has shown any sign of strength on any street. I'd bet about half the pot here."

you understand that if the opponents of the calling stations, they easily call your bet into the floor of the bank ... you do not knock out an ace with a weak kicker here on the river...

I think you are misunderstanding me. I never suggested that a river bet would get an ace with a weak kicker to fold.
 
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trent32la

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I understand the concept of equity but can you explain this please? :confused:
Denying equity is making a bet (usually 30-50% pot) on the flop or turn, usually with air, knowing most made hands will call and all unmade hands will fold.

Example: We open 2bb in MP off of 30bb with KQo and only the BB calls. The flop comes 852r. BB checks and it's on us. In this case, betting will only get worse hands to fold and better hands to call. However, we cbet knowing we have a range advantage, represent a stronger range of hands in theory by betting flop, and with 2 live cards our opponent has around 25% equity against us that V will fold with when we bet. So, rather than check back and give a free card while in theory, capping our range, we bet small (30-40% pot) to deny our opponent his equity vs our hand because they will fold air to a bet.
 
Devojeff

Devojeff

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Denying equity is making a bet (usually 30-50% pot) on the flop or turn, usually with air, knowing most made hands will call and all unmade hands will fold.

Example: We open 2bb in MP off of 30bb with KQo and only the BB calls. The flop comes 852r. BB checks and it's on us. In this case, betting will only get worse hands to fold and better hands to call. However, we cbet knowing we have a range advantage, represent a stronger range of hands in theory by betting flop, and with 2 live cards our opponent has around 25% equity against us that V will fold with when we bet. So, rather than check back and give a free card while in theory, capping our range, we bet small (30-40% pot) to deny our opponent his equity vs our hand because they will fold air to a bet.

I think i understood, thanks :D
 
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