Would you ever fold KK preflop?

Just the question from the title really. Being the 2nd best hand you can get, would you ever consider laying this down before even seeing a flop? Below is the hand that made me consider this.

pokerstars - $0.02 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
BTN: 265 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, hands: 3)
SB: 60 BB
BB: 150 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG+1: 145 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (MP): 200.5 BB
MP+1: 33 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
MP+2: 292 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
CO: 143.5 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Kd
UTG raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 7 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 24 BB, UTG raises to 100 BB and is all-in, Hero raises to 176 BB, BB calls 126 BB and is all-in

So I didn't have much information on either player, apart from that BB seems fairly loose and very aggresive in the hands I have seen. My other consideration was that having already doubled my stack, I had a lot to lose in this hand! Just curious whether everyone else would still be trying to get it all in the middle pre here.
Thanks!

I neever fold my KK in poker preflop maybe missclick happens :/ These all ins probably AK QQ Ak JJ

They are both unknown, ESS is 150bb and it's 2nl Zoom so I'm not folding there. Vs certain villains on the deep (250bb) tables I'd consider folding KK pre depending on the preflop action

I fold pre here. Once UTG cold 4-bets, and gets 5bet do you really think that they can do this with QQ or JJ ?Unless you have good reads that both players are spewy then you can safely fold, most players at nl$2 zoom are passive nut peddlers.

- $0.02 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
When u play small cash tables u can't fold KK this is only 2-3$

I personally wouldnt fold kk preflop unless i was on bubble and it involved quite a bit of money.I recently done this on bovada not once but twice.Once in 10k Gtd. and in 8k Gtd. and was on bubble plus or minus 4-6 places, could have just sitout and doubled money.Lost both hands to Aces and will probably do it again.Im out about 40 bucks, but i guess my brain just cant wrap around folding KK pre.

Sometimes, I suspect that KK is not good and you lose the game, but passed.

It's NL2. Just call it.

hard to fold in that spot but sometimes you gotta play your gut, yes i have folded kk to a 4 bet but not often, depends on players and there style of play!!! good luck on the tables

tomnovember said:

It's NL2. Just call it.

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Of course this isn't the logical way to think, I probably do the same because I wouldn't care about losing $2 with kings, but if it got deeper and where I cared, I think I fold here. He just has to have AA with that bet. and if hes daring with QQ then good for him, but it sure feels and looks like aces, I am letting it go.

There are even situations where you fold AA preflop. Lets say on a bubble of a satty and you have 10 bb and there are 3 guys with 2 bbs left easy fold. Also folding kings there. About the hand in ur op in the micro people would do this with AK QQ JJ TT maybe even worse. I wouldn't lay down there unless i got him tagged as a reg.

Carl Trooper said:

Of course this isn't the logical way to think, I probably do the same because I wouldn't care about losing $2 with kings, but if it got deeper and where I cared, I think I fold here. He just has to have AA with that bet. and if hes daring with QQ then good for him, but it sure feels and looks like aces, I am letting it go.

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I get what you want to tell him but people are donking there and often shove weaker hands. I think its profitable to in these games to get it in there.

markrh13 said:

Just the question from the title really. Being the 2nd best hand you can get, would you ever consider laying this down before even seeing a flop? Below is the hand that made me consider this.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
BTN: 265 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
SB: 60 BB
BB: 150 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG+1: 145 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (MP): 200.5 BB
MP+1: 33 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
MP+2: 292 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
CO: 143.5 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Kd
UTG raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 7 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 24 BB, UTG raises to 100 BB and is all-in, Hero raises to 176 BB, BB calls 126 BB and is all-in

So I didn't have much information on either player, apart from that BB seems fairly loose and very aggresive in the hands I have seen. My other consideration was that having already doubled my stack, I had a lot to lose in this hand! Just curious whether everyone else would still be trying to get it all in the middle pre here.
Thanks!

Spoiler

So in the end both the other players had AA. A king came on the river, I won the pot and nearly melted with relief

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There is no info about the players so I would have played it the same way.
Yeah, sometimes KK faces with AA but next time you will have the aces... this equalize it (plus in CG the there is no huge difference in stacks usually). You are much stronger against all other hands...so never fold KK.

It is a tough one.

I have folded KK pre in $2NL Zoom before. It was largely due to stack sizes and the opponent type (I had >200BB, and villain had >400BB). A lot of players at these stakes are far less aggressive pre-flop with weaker holdings so often-times they do give off massive tells when they actually have the top 1% of hands, e.g. UTG is 5-bet shoving 100BB all-in. Tricky plays just don't work often enough in this format so unless he is a maniac, he probably has us beat.

But if I am <200BB deep then I still probably can't fold KK. Even AKo is very hard to get away from pre given the math. I probably would need some more information to fold KK here, and due to the fact we have UTG covered, coming over the top is probably okay as well.

That said, it is still very rare to see QQ or worse in certain situations, to the point where breaking even just doesn't happen as often enough as some may think. We are essentially 6-betting here with the 2nd best hand so it is honestly a bit of a surprise when we do actually win.

Essentially, the lower the stakes and the tighter the format, the less people are 4-betting and 5-betting >100BB with <AA. This is mainly true of $2NL Zoom. Yes, of course you will still get donks with a lot worse hands risking their entire stacks but in all honestly they tend to have less chips already and do it in a different way.

I don't think I could ever fold KK at $.02nl

I have before, in a satellite tournament near the bubble where everyone gets the same place.

If it's a cash game, i'm sticking it in there

In this situation, I would not fold KK.

I would be thinking I am ahead preflop and not the second or third.

I suppose it is possible to find a spot to fold KK, but it is rare. I don't think I've ever done it. Even if there aren't that many people 5-betting without KK+ the few that do increase the number of garbage hands you'll see in these spots significantly.

Say 1 in 100 people go crazy with garbage in this spot. That may be a total of 600 combos or possibly more. This 1% are just totally nuts.

Pretend the other 99 people do this with KK+. That is 7 combos. KK is the same hand so only 6 combos beat us.

600*1 = 600
6*100 =600

That gives about 50% equity


For my above example, I was just trying to get the concept described in my first paragraph across and by no means believe these are necessarily the actual numbers.

Only takes a few crazies in a population to make KK worth calling in troubling spots.

It is hard to fold in that spot , yes I have folded KK to a 4 bet but not often, it all depends on players and there style of play!!

I would proabably fold it in a MTT or SNG on a bubble action. Even there it is tough to fold it. But here, in this situation of NL2 zoom, I would never fold those kings

Oh, I lost with KK more than 6-7 times in the roll, but I will never fold that hand.:biggrin:
I guess, I will never learn.

folding KK pre ? oh well i better leave poker then ..lol.. no mate never ever fold kk pre.. unless a maiac tag is playing who has Plays only bb or showed me AA everytime he 4 bet me befoe .. but then also i would go ahead n risk my Money with KK ...

Not in cash games, but I have in MTTs.

I would not. But in 95% of cases I lose this hand
Sad but true...

I made a KK fold once..guy showed me aces..look at my post in BBV