Worst call in history, right?

full tilt poker Game #8701107530: Table Welch - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:54:33 ET - 2008/10/28
Seat 1: guggschhalt ($20.70)
Seat 2: ischiaswilly1 ($20)
Seat 3: GangstaMENIS ($126.50)
Seat 4: viking999 ($124.25)
Seat 5: eintopf666 ($20)
Seat 6: MrNomrcy ($264.70)
Seat 7: Glazze123 ($100)
Seat 8: mafiozi1422 ($20)
Seat 9: yvonneschae ($30)
GangstaMENIS posts the small blind of $0.50
viking999 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to viking999 [3s 4s]
MrNomrcy folds
Glazze123 folds
mafiozi1422 folds
yvonneschae folds
guggschhalt folds
ischiaswilly1 folds
GangstaMENIS calls $0.50
viking999 checks
*** FLOP *** [6s 7s As]
GangstaMENIS checks
viking999 bets $1
GangstaMENIS raises to $5
viking999 raises to $16
GangstaMENIS has 15 seconds left to act
GangstaMENIS raises to $125.50, and is all in
viking999: wow
viking999 has 15 seconds left to act
viking999 has requested TIME
viking999 calls $107.25, and is all in
GangstaMENIS shows [5s 8s]
viking999 shows [3s 4s]
Uncalled bet of $2.25 returned to GangstaMENIS
*** TURN *** [6s 7s As] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [6s 7s As 6h] [8h]
GangstaMENIS shows a flush, Ace high
viking999 shows a flush, Ace high
GangstaMENIS wins the pot ($245.50) with a flush, Ace high
viking999 adds $100
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $248.50 | Rake $3
Board: [6s 7s As 6h 8h]
Seat 1: guggschhalt didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: ischiaswilly1 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: GangstaMENIS (small blind) showed [5s 8s] and won ($245.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 4: viking999 (big blind) showed [3s 4s] and lost with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: eintopf666 is sitting out
Seat 6: MrNomrcy didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Glazze123 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: mafiozi1422 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: yvonneschae didn't bet (folded)

My initial gut reaction was that this big an overshove is almost always a non-nut flush.

Then I started thinking of excuses. It was a blind battle (though it wasn't really because there was no raise). The villain was somewhat aggressive. He could have two pair and just be gambling that I'm drawing to a big spade. Maybe he has some Ks hand and is just a gambler. Even if he has one of these hands, he still has a good number of outs. If I'm wrong, I have at most one out.

Are the maybes enough to call, or was I just being lazy, falling back on the "well, it was a cooler" excuse? I'm thinking the latter.

Almost made up for it here. Kind of upset I even called the turn, but I figured I had a good number of full house outs even if I was wrong.

Full Tilt poker game #8701298747: Table Camden Rose - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:10:42 ET - 2008/10/28
Seat 1: deucedelrio29 ($36.55)
Seat 2: shnurrrrrrrp ($102), is sitting out
Seat 3: viking999 ($121.70)
Seat 4: Puolikas ($94.85)
Seat 5: mythique ($21.30)
Seat 6: PoquerPal ($9.15)
Seat 7: HumbaggnHeeb ($100)
Seat 8: horse9543 ($35.50)
Seat 9: Hero_Mucks ($100)
PoquerPal posts the small blind of $0.50
HumbaggnHeeb posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to viking999 [Ac Kh]
horse9543 has 15 seconds left to act
horse9543 folds
Hero_Mucks folds
deucedelrio29 calls $1
viking999 raises to $4
Puolikas calls $4
mythique folds
PoquerPal folds
HumbaggnHeeb adds $1
HumbaggnHeeb folds
deucedelrio29 calls $3
*** FLOP *** [As Ad 3s]
deucedelrio29 checks
viking999 has 15 seconds left to act
viking999 bets $9
shnurrrrrrrp has returned
Puolikas calls $9
deucedelrio29 calls $9
*** TURN *** [As Ad 3s] [Js]
deucedelrio29 checks
viking999 has 15 seconds left to act
viking999 checks
Puolikas bets $28
deucedelrio29 calls $23.55, and is all in
viking999 has 15 seconds left to act
viking999 calls $28
*** RIVER *** [As Ad 3s Js] [7c]
viking999 checks
Puolikas bets $53.85, and is all in
viking999 has 15 seconds left to act
viking999 has requested TIME
viking999 adds $19.30
viking999 folds
Uncalled bet of $53.85 returned to Puolikas
Puolikas wins the side pot ($8.90)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Puolikas shows [Ks Qs] a flush, Ace high
deucedelrio29 mucks
Puolikas wins the main pot ($108.15) with a flush, Ace high
deucedelrio29 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $120.05 Main pot $111.15. Side pot $8.90. | Rake $3
Board: [As Ad 3s Js 7c]
Seat 1: deucedelrio29 mucked [8c Ah] - three of a kind, Aces
Seat 2: shnurrrrrrrp is sitting out
Seat 3: viking999 folded on the River
Seat 4: Puolikas showed [Ks Qs] and won ($117.05) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: mythique (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: PoquerPal (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: HumbaggnHeeb (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: horse9543 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Hero_Mucks didn't bet (folded)

First hand is perfectly fine. You should NEVER be worrying about losing a stack in a situation like this. This is absolutely not what separates big winning players from marginal winners from break even players from losers etc.

2nd hand: haha folding is so much easier when you will see villain's hand regardless.

By the way, I intended the title of this post to be an exaggeration. I don't think it's a bad call, but I still think I maybe could have gotten away from it.

viking999 said:

By the way, I intended the title of this post to be an exaggeration. I don't think it's a bad call, but I still think I maybe could have gotten away from it.

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yea i know, i wasn't thinking that you had thought you had made a bad call. But you shouldn't even give a hand like this a second thought after it is over. Ppl just shouldn't be worried about potentially getting away from things like flopped flushes, because everybody has far more prevalent and far more costly leaks that are more important to think about.

i think the way you went about the hands was bad. i like to play stuff conservatively unless i know i got the best hand. a large but not to large of a bet because if that spade comes out.... then.... the next bet your going to have to call is going to be a lot. you got to sometimes play conservatively unless u got the nuts.

wtf at folding the last hand, you sir are way better than me

Nah. The worst call in history was the schoolteacher who told a kid named Albert Einstein that he was stupid and would never amount to anything.

At first sight the first hand looks like a questionable call, but with all the info I think I would've done the same, thinking he was trying to steal the pot representing your hand, having in mind that he would have raised with higher suited cards, from the way he's been playing.

Egon Towst said:

Nah. The worst call in history was the schoolteacher who told a kid named Albert Einstein that he was stupid and would never amount to anything.

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Or the film director who at Gene Kelley's 1st audition remarked, " can't act, can't sing, can dance a bit".

a large but not to large of a bet because if that spade comes out.... then.... the next bet your going to have to call is going to be a lot.

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Are you saying you would have just flat-called the $5? I disagree with that approach, because I'm still a big favorite against a flush draw and will likely get called by one, and I can easily get away from it if the spade comes. In other words, I have no intention of calling the next bet if the spade comes out.

I think my big regret about the first hand is that he has 4-10 outs when I'm ahead, but I only have 0-1 outs when he's ahead. I'm getting some pot odds, but it's pretty close to 1:1. So I have to be more than 50% sure he doesn't have the flush. I don't know if I was quite sure enough to call.

i think first hand its really hard to get away from... hard to tell what one couldve done differently in that very situation... maybe the reraise after your reraise couldve told u that he had the flush.. maybe i dont know.. but i think most players wouldve just called ur reraise with a draw...

second hand... great play imo, but i think ur preflop raise shoulda been bigger. after one limper... its just too inviting for ur opponents to call... apart from that... great check on the turn, and good fold on the river.... u said something about ur call on the turn being bad... i think its an ok check-call... u still got outs... and great implied odds, cause likely, your opponents, is gone pay you off if u hit

In the first hand i think you maybe could have layed it down after the all in because only a maniac would push after a re-raise without the flush, but let's be honest if you get all the money in every time you flop a flush you'll be in good shape, this was a cooler and you should only lay a hand like that down against an absolute rock!

Maybe I'm just crazy, but when he raised the first time, that's just a call. If the bets get that heavy, easy fold. A flush with 3s4s as your hole cards isn't something to be confident with, unless you can see the guys hole cards and know for a fact your good. I'm actually surprised at his play as well--over $100 with 8s5s in his hands to make the flush? That's crazier than me saying it was an easy fold. Bottom line is, there was a lot of hands that could beat you. With only 3 spades on the board, you had the worst possible flush! When he shoves like that, you have to put him on the flush, which means you sir, are drawing dead.

I just did a rough count and on that flop, there were 28 hands (that I counted at least, I could be off, but that's still a lot) that would beat you. K2, K5, K8, K9, KT, KJ, KQ, Q2, Q5, Q8, Q9, QT, QJ, J2, J5, J8, J9, JT, T2, T5, T8, T9, 92, 95, 98, 82, 85, and 52 (all suited in spades obviously). Like I said before, 34 flopping a flush, fold equity, easy.

pretty unlucky in both hands, though agree for $28 you could have put the AK down after turn....just a bad day!

Gallinho said:

In the first hand i think you maybe could have layed it down after the all in because only a maniac would push after a re-raise without the flush, but let's be honest if you get all the money in every time you flop a flush you'll be in good shape, this was a cooler and you should only lay a hand like that down against an absolute rock!

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By the way, in no way shape or form was this a cooler. Flush against flush, alright fine that sucks. But like I said, there was 28 hands that could beat the 3s4s. Not exactly a monster against a monster. Actually not even a strong hand. Only flush he could possibly beat is if a 4th spade came out and the other guy had the 2s. The word "cooler" is thrown around the card table more often than bad beat or "love" in a relationship. If you don't have the 5th nuts or better as the losing hand (at least at the time your chips go into the pot), your not against a cooler, you just either misread the hand entirely or have trouble laying down anything. Apparently you got smarter the next time around with the trip aces. Guy obviously hit a flush, so if you don't make a boat, fold, which was a good laydown. But I still say that first hand was an auto muck.

CryingAmy said:

pretty unlucky in both hands, though agree for $28 you could have put the AK down after turn....just a bad day!

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Once again, first hand, not all that unlucky, easy fold with a mediocre hand. And I have to disagree with that $28 being too much to call. Trip aces, 9 outs to make a boat, had $13 invested into a pot of $39. With the $28 and the all-in in front of him, pot is at $90.55. Only $28 to call with his remaining stack of $108.70. I don't know how to figure pot odds, but I'd say this is a great call. If he hits the K on the river, he's getting stacked easy because that guy already thinks his flush is good. If the board pairs, oh well, he still wins the pot of over $100 on a $0.50/$1.00 table. When he didn't make his boat, obviously flush was good, so good laydown. I know quite a few people that would call that river all day (they also have never cashed in a tourney of more than 20 people, so I wouldn't copy their play).